Gaps in streamed playback
Mon, Jul 25 2011, 10:43PM
I was surprised to read in Andrew Everard's review of the Onkyo TX-NR609 receiver (August 2011) that it introduces a gap of 'a couple of seconds' between tracks when playing back music streamed from a hard disk. He also states that 'very few streaming clients of this kind do offer fully gapless playback'.
I have been listening to music stored on my main computer's hard disk (flac and mp3) for some time now using a cheap netbook located adjacent to my audio system and with both computers connected to my wireless network. Using Windows Media Player, I never get any gaps unless it was a download from a website such as eMusic or i-Tunes where the record company were incompetent when setting up their download tracks. Even then the gap is usually only a matter of milliseconds although none the less annoying and frequently ruining listening pleasure.
Why on earth would the receiver manufacturers introduce these additional gaps in playback?
I had been contemplating replacing my now rather elderly, but sonically excellent, Sony surround amplifier with something like the Onkyo as a more elegant solution for listening to streamed audio but I am now seriously put off such a move.
Tue, Jul 26 2011, 12:26PM
#2
RE: Gaps in streamed playback
My new Cambridge Audio NP30 Network Music Player also suffers from gaps - but at least Cambridge say they're working on it, although apparently it's not trivial to fix.
Tue, Jul 26 2011, 10:29PM
#3
RE: Gaps in streamed playback
Hi Andrew
So how is it that WMP on a Windows PC doesn't have this problem with MP3 downloads which are correctly done? For instance the BIS Beethoven Emperor Concerto with Ronald Brautigam doesn't have any gap between the second and third movements on a download from eMusic. Nor if it is burned to CD.
And on MP3s that I have ripped from CD using Audio Transcoder, there is also no problem.
Admittedly, I do have WMP set with 'crossfading' on and 0 gap but surely AV streaming clients should be able to be set the same?
Wed, Jul 27 2011, 8:57AM
#4
RE: Gaps in streamed playback
So how is it that WMP on a Windows PC doesn't have this problem with MP3 downloads which are correctly done?
Because Windows Media Player has supported gapless playback since version 9.
Admittedly, I do have WMP set with 'crossfading' on and 0 gap
I think you've just answered your own question.
but surely AV streaming clients should be able to be set the same?
You'd think, and hope, so, wouldn't you? And indeed some, athough very few, currently do. But it seems to be that some designers may not have thought through how the products would be used, and have thought in terms of tracks as 'songs' – very iTunes thinking! – to be played individually, rather than as parts of a whole.
And by the way, it doesn't just affect us classical music enthusiasts: it's even more of a problem for those who are fans of 'mix'-type dance music albums, on which the tracks segue into each other, but are still distinct tracks. And thus prone to gaps.
Thu, Jul 28 2011, 6:24PM
#5
RE: Gaps in streamed playback
My Linn Sneaky Music DS plays files (both: uncompressed WAV, AIFF & lossless: FLAC, ALAC or MP4) without gaps.
Thu, Jul 28 2011, 9:32PM
#6
RE: Gaps in streamed playback
My Linn Sneaky Music DS plays files (both: uncompressed WAV, AIFF & lossless: FLAC, ALAC or MP4) without gaps.
I know that the words Linn and MP3 don't sit together very well but have you tried playing MP3 files of a continuous work?
Fri, Aug 26 2011, 8:34AM
#7
RE: Gaps in streamed playback
That's not exactly true. It's the files themselves that have the gaps at the ends. No current player software should play gaps; this is a simple task that the software can handle. As for hardware, it's the same; anything that plays gaps is to be avoided.
Sat, Sep 10 2011, 9:16PM
#8
RE: Gaps in streamed playback
I'd just to like to say that I think the problems with classical music and 'gapped' playback (with quite expensive devices) are being seriously understated. I have many recordings of concerti, symphonies, oratorios, operas and so on that would be wrecked by having unnecessary gaps. An example is several Mahler symphonies that have several separate tracks in the middle of single movements - these would be wrecked.
Sergeant Pepper would not be the same either, but that's out of scope!
Can I suggest that Gramophone take a stronger stand on this? Gaps betwen 'songs' is one thing. Gaps in a 'piece' quite another.
For info, I use flac format almost exclusively, with foobar2000 (which is free) on my PC, and Logitech Squeezebox Touch to listen elsewhere. Both provide 'gapless' playback.
Sun, Sep 11 2011, 8:34AM
#9
RE: Gaps in streamed playback
mpd "music player daemon" supports gapless playback. Highly recommended software for tech savvy people or those with access to geeks. Its relatively easy to set up but requires some computer knowledge. I've been running it on linux straight into my QB-9. Am very happy with it, the software you can use on linux (Ario is the best client I've found) and control from Android phone.
Wed, Sep 14 2011, 8:28PM
#10
RE: Gaps RE: Gaps in streamed playback
I'd just to like to say that I think the problems with classical music and 'gapped' playback (with quite expensive devices) are being seriously understated. I have many recordings of concerti, symphonies, oratorios, operas and so on that would be wrecked by having unnecessary gaps. An example is several Mahler symphonies that have several separate tracks in the middle of single movements - these would be wrecked.
Sergeant Pepper would not be the same either, but that's out of scope!
Can I suggest that Gramophone take a stronger stand on this? Gaps betwen 'songs' is one thing. Gaps in a 'piece' quite another.
I quite agree, Tim. It is a ridiculous state of affairs, and I can just imagine the outcry if (say) Compact Disc had been launched with such a laughable flaw.
I am certainly holding off any serious purchase until this is sorted out properly. We should not be beta testers for badly implemented designs!
Mon, Oct 3 2011, 6:14PM
#11
RE: Gaps RE: Gaps in streamed playback
I download much music from various sources and until this gap situation is solved, and implemented across all formats and devices, I will stick to CD's where tracks require gapless transition.
I haven't the time or inclination to become more tech savvy to overcome this problem. CD is still hugely popular and widely available (even second hand) and does have the edge over downloaded files.
Mon, Oct 3 2011, 11:01PM
#12
RE: Gaps in streamed playback
iTunes supports gapless playback - including from MP3s but it is dependent on the data built into the tracks as much as the hardware / software solution. In 2011 a major such as Onkyo should not be putting out hardware with such an obvious flaw. I think they and others are perhaps looking at network audio as a bonus feature, when really it is perhaps a more important source than CD in many systems nowadays.
My advice is, for gapless, use a computer - I have a 2009 Mac Mini as my main source - small and quiet. You could alternatively use something like an AirPort Express to stream audio to the system if you don't want the computer in the listening room. (You will be limited to 16-bit CD quality with something like this, but it's debatable whether you could reliably hear the difference in somthing better under blind listening test conditions.)
As far as downloads go, if it won't play gaplessly in iTunes (where you know it should) ask for a replacement (you'll normally get a refund as they would need to obtain new files from the record company - Passionato and iTunes have refunded me for such items)...
As far as the Onkyo and its ilk are concerned - buy it for its amps, its processing but not (right now) for its network audio capabilities. Seriously -- if it can't do (for lots of money) what iTunes/WMP can do on your PC for free then it can not be considered a serious source.
Sun, Oct 16 2011, 7:04PM
#13
RE: Gaps in streamed playback
Squeezebox players have done proper gapless for ages. They'll also do smart cross-fading if you've set-up a playlist from many albums & you want non-stop 'party' music.
Wed, Nov 2 2011, 9:05PM
#14
RE: Gaps in streamed playback
The Awards issue has at last reached me (recently, Gramophone's idea of airmail to New Zealand seems to be to strap the mag. to the back of a superannuated pigeon) and I would be interested to hear from Andrew whether the Musical Fidelity M1 CLiC has gapless playback.
And can I assume that the Audio Pro WF100 (and presumably the similar and much cheaper Sitecom Audio Transmitter) bypass the computer's sound card thus giving the high quality audio results? I assume that you use the the computer's media player to actually play an album?
On that subject, the only truely gapless playback media player for Windows computers that I have found is the open-source Foobar2000 (although WMP can be made to be virtually so by implementing crossfading). The other popular media player, VLC, does not do gapless playback so is as useless as most of the streamed-audio players.
Fri, Nov 4 2011, 12:00PM
#15
RE: Gaps in streamed playback
I would be interested to hear from Andrew whether the Musical Fidelity M1 CLiC has gapless playback.
Yes, it does.
And can I assume that the Audio Pro WF100 (and presumably the similar and much cheaper Sitecom Audio Transmitter) bypass the computer's sound card thus giving the high quality audio results? I assume that you use the the computer's media player to actually play an album?
Yes, and yes.
The problem is in the way lossy formats are stored and played back, which involves the insertion of some 'padding' between tracks. It's possible to get round this with the use of appropriate metadata and buffering, but as yet very few playing systems seem to handle this satisfactorily. It's not a problem with lossless formats, which most systems can play smoothly, but the MP3s that many people use do tend to have this problem.
It's not a case of the hardware manufacturers introducing additional gaps, but rather an inherent problem in the technology, which some manufacturers solve better than other – indeed, those manufacturers I have spoken to are keen to do what they can to eliminate this annoyance in future firmware upgrades if possible.
Audio Editor, Gramophone