Review
Sun, May 5 2013, 8:25AM
What a very pleasing and satisfying coincidence to see Andrew Everard's review of the Linn DSM in this month's magazine, reading it within days of having purchased it myself (the DS-only version). Having been glued to my system since including the unit, hardly believing the sheer musicality it brings anew to my listening, I saw AE's assessment perfectly coinciding with my own.
I particularly liked his "listening in" analogy to desrcibe the clarity and precision it brings. Fine audio reviewing, I thought, so congratulations there!
A few days later I added the pre-amp partner to the DS, the Akurate Kontrol, which brought another improvement but nowhere near that of replacing the (still wonderful) lesser DS player, the Majik with the Akurate. (What is it with Linn and those letter Ks?)
Now my beloved LP12 has a serious rival which will further tip the balance of my listening in favour of digital streaming. The point was confirmed when I played both vinyl and digital versions of my favourite symphony, Saint-Saens' No3 (CBSO under Louis Fremaux EMI 1973.) I had thought the CD version inferior. Not any more. Amazing. And delightful!
Vic.
Sun, May 5 2013, 7:56PM
#2
RE: Review
Right Chris:
A scan of Andrew Everard's guide to digital streaming would provide a better explanation than I can, but as you've asked and we are in a far more civilised dialogue here than elsewhere, I'll have a go.
The CD is ripped (copied) onto a hard drive using a software program called FLAC (Free Lossless Audio Codec) which reads and rereads until it has one hundred percent of the CD's content. (No CD player involved.) This takes on average, about three minutes or so for each CD. This content in then stored on a large hard drive, a NAS (network attached storage device) containing all my digital music, all CDs and downloads, automatically backed up onto two other drives twice a week in case of disc failure. (My wife deals with the technicalities, that's her field.)
The DS player takes from the NAS and feeds it into the rest of the system. The better the DS, the better the reproduction of course. See AE's review in this month's magazine for what digital streaming can offer over CD players, with their moving parts, judder, and one-time laser reading of the "bits", their dependence on error-correction on each playing. A DS has no moving parts. Beyond that I have no idea how they do the business. I just know it's amazing results.
I understand that the cheapest digital streamer will out-perform most CD players at almost any price.
Then there is the convenience and user friendliness. I control mine on an iPad - from switch on, to selection and cueing-up, to browsing the total NAS content from my listening position. This particularly useful for programming, say symphonies with movements across two discs, or one concerto from a disc of three, or a programme of listening for a long session. Some people compile and store playlists but I don't feel the need. It's probably more useful for pop music than classical though.
But as you see from my post above and Andrew's review, it's the music, the music, the music.
Hope that helps.
Vic.
Sun, May 5 2013, 8:16PM
#3
RE: Review
Thank you Vic for the careful and thorough reply.
The two bits that I find difficult are these:
First, copying the CD on to the computer. This itself involves a C D drive running 10 to 20 times faster than playing a CD. Why is the copy made this way better than playing the CD?
Second, if I copy a CD to my Mac computer in a lossless format (e.g. Apple Lossless) I can play the file directly via the optical digital output of the computer direct to my Meridian DAC (part of the two-box CD player). Why do I need any other piece of equipment in between.
If you don't know, maybe Andrew can help. As you see I'm really out of my depth here.
Thanks again
Chris
Once again I'm sorry we couldn't find common ground elsewhere. Disappointing.
Mon, May 6 2013, 12:46AM
#4
RE: Review
Whilst I haven't got a copy of the current magazine yet and I don't doubt Vic's judgement I too fail to see how ripping the CD to the NAS can give better quality than putting it into a CD player. But then I can't see why the hard disk mechanism in the NAS should be more error free or better than the CD player's mechanism.
If I've got this correct instead of CD player direct to amplifier we have CD recorded on to a hard drive in the NAS then the recorded signal from the NAS is taken to the DS and thence from the DS to the pre-amplifier and then presumably to the main amplifier. The DS may have no moving parts but the NAS does. I fail to see how adding all these extra bits of equipment can improve the sound and would have thought the more links in the chain would have tended to degrade the sound rather than improve it.
Admittedly my technical expertise is somewhat greater in record playing equipment & in designing & making valve amplifiers rather than in digital technology so perhaps Ted R or someone can explain?
Mon, May 6 2013, 7:06AM
#5
RE: Review
Yes, we on territory that none of us understand sufficiently for debate.
This is one for Andrew Everard. He has an excellent account on all things to do with digital streaming somewhere, I remember.
As far as I understand it, the difference is in what lossless capture does with the information. Beyond that, I'm lost. What I do know is that when I replaced my Linn Karik/Numeric CD player with the Majik DS player, the difference was significant. Going from the Majik to the Akurate has made listening a compulsion since it arrived.
Last evening, after a hard day on the Forum, the new Symphonie Fantastique (SCO, Robin Ticciati) produced some of the best sounds I have ever heard from an audio setup.
I don't know how it delivers, but deliver it does.
Vic.
Mon, May 6 2013, 8:04AM
#6
RE: Review
OK Vic, of course you are right it's the bottom line that counts!
What I find truly alarming/surprising is that transferring CDs on to a hard drive via a (cheap) CD driver on a computer can result in sounds superior to playing the CD on your expensive Linn Karik. This is frightening. The whole thing is such a peculiar mixture of cheap and expensive!
We'll have to wait for Andrew!
Chris
Mon, May 6 2013, 8:05AM
#7
RE: Review
Sorry, duplicate.
Mon, May 6 2013, 10:03AM
#8
RE: Review
But then I can't see why the hard disk mechanism in the NAS should be more error free or better than the CD player's mechanism.
The data on both hard disks and CDs is stored with error correction information which is used by the drive/player to perfectly correct any minor read errors that occur. All audio CDs (including brand new pressed ones) have errors on the disc surface. However these (and any errors due to minor scratches/dust) should always be perfectly corrected because of the in built error information. It would require a major scratch or defect for the error correction to fail and then e.g. a CD player will try and guess (interpolate) what the sound should be or in the worse case give an audible blip.
In principle music stored as a computer data file ( .wav, .flac, etc) on a CD-R uses more robust error correction that used for music stored on an ordinary (red book) audio CD that plays in a conventional CD player, but in practice with CDs in reasonably good condition this is probably not important.
IMHO, the main advantage of the NAS approach is to do with how you live your life. Many people do not want (or are not allowed to have!) their computer and lots of wires in their living room, and increasingly they want to share media around their house, and have easy access and control from their armchair. In my own view, even if you haven't gone down this route yet, it is more and more likely you may have to consider some form of it in the future, not necessarily for audio but more likely for TV and video. Already our Freeview TV (with aerial) in the UK has the issue of space for extra HD channels. I'm not sure how long it will last before we all need to switch again to something else.
Ted
Mon, May 6 2013, 11:41AM
#9
RE: Review
Could you help us with the sound issue, Ted?
Why does a DS sound better than a CD player? And it's not marginal. Apparently Linn's cheapest DS player sounded better than their top CD player. (They have given up on CD players and no longer make them.) Same difference with Naim CD/DS equivalent, I understand.
Vic.
Mon, May 6 2013, 12:32PM
#10
RE: Review
Vic - as you know from our discussions long ago, I believe there is no obvious electronics explanation why streamed music might sound better than a CD. The main thing is that you (and Mrs Vic) are happy with your system. In fact it is best not to worry too much at this stage otherwise you might soon have to justify an upgrade to the Klimax! (who chose that name?)
Ted
Mon, May 6 2013, 1:57PM
#11
RE: Review
Thanks for your comments, Ted, I was aware of the error correction with CDs but was not aware of how the situation worked regarding computer files.
I think however I will carry on with just CDs, LPs & FM radio (as long as the latter is allowed to continue) as somehow the ritual of playing a physical object has in some way become part of the listening experience, no doubt going back to the days when I had to play 10 record sides or so to listen to a symphony. If I purchase a CD download (which must be lossless) then if it's any good I burn a CD anyway and decide which of my systems, which do have subtle differences, suits it best.
I haven't though heard full resolution downloads due to their file size & the fact my DAC only works at 44.1kHz 16 bit altough I have wondered whether it would be worth getting one for high res files.
Mon, May 6 2013, 6:10PM
#12
RE: Review
Vic - as you know from our discussions long ago, I believe there is no obvious electronics explanation why streamed music might sound better than a CD. The main thing is that you (and Mrs Vic) are happy with your system. In fact it is best not to worry too much at this stage otherwise you might soon have to justify an upgrade to the Klimax! (who chose that name?)
Ted
Tee hee! Yes indeed, Ted. But "happy" hardly covers it at the moment! I have heard a Klimax DS played through the same pre-amp and power amp as mine but using speakers less capable than mine, and I was not overwhelmed, considering the cost of it. Better, yes, but not worth more than twice the cost.
However, in the light of your comments above, and Chris' original question to you, help us out with this one...
Whatever the audio differences between a CD player and a DS player, what accounts for the audio difference between DS players? (As I posted above, the difference between my two has been stunning!) Whether CD players should or could provide perfect reproduction - or at least, reproduce (or error-correct) everything put on to the physical disc, what is going on between DS players? You can see what I'm getting at? Whatever DS players do with what come off the NAS, each does it differently. So shouldn't the difference between what a DS player does with a file on the one hand, and what a CD player's laser does with reading a CD on the other, make a significant difference in what we hear? If it is theoretically possible that both do the same job, why the difference between DS players?
It is because neither I nor Chris understand what is going on in the clever bit that this question is relevant here.
As for 33lp's question about Hi-Res files... a whole new can of worms there, is there not?
Vic.
Mon, May 6 2013, 7:41PM
#13
RE: Review
Yes, That's spot-on Vic!
Something that just occurred to me: Your new Linn DS I think has a conventional digital input socket? Also your Linn CD player probably has a digital output socket? If so you could play a CD directly from your CD player through your new DS. I wonder what it would sound like, compared with the same CD streamed? Probably it's too much trouble, even if you still have the CD player but......
Chris
Mon, May 6 2013, 7:56PM
#14
RE: Review
If, as I understand matters the digital to analogue conversion takes place in the digital streamer then it will be subject to the same vagaries in design & components as any other DAC whether that be in a CD player, digital streamer or stand alone DAC. The converter chip used, Wolfson, Burr Brown or whatever; the amount of jitter and the design of the analogue output circuitry; discrete components or integrated circuits, use of feedback etc could all have a bearing on what you hear.
As Chris says if you use the DAC in the streamer rather than that in your CD player to play CDs & there is a difference, these factors will come into account & to your ears the DS's DAC will be "better" than your CD player's DAC.
Meanwhile, just to complicate matters I've just been reading an article about Direct Stream Digital downloads as the possible future.....
Tue, May 7 2013, 7:42AM
#15
RE: Review
Whatever the audio differences between a CD player and a DS player, what accounts for the audio difference between DS players?
Well again I would not worry about it. If you're happy with it then that's all that matters.
But as we discussed at length in the past, I believe that there is no satisfactory electronics explanation that can explain the audible difference itself. As you go up their product line, hifi manufacturers in general use more expensive internal components like DAC chips. When you see measured data in some hifi magazines showing slightly better performance this is a direct consequence of those better DAC chips. This I accept is true.
Many people (and this probably includes many who work for hifi companies) believe this better DAC performance is sufficient for you to hear improved sound, but I don't. The reason I don't believe it is that the differences between modern DAC chips are minute on the scale of things we might notice whilst playing music under normal circumstances. As I mentioned before, the difference in sound you are receiving at some frequencies by simply moving your head slightly from side to side in your arm chair will be much greater that any differences caused by the DAC chip. (The acoustics of a typical room at some frequencies can vary wildly by huge amounts, e.g. 20dB or more over distances comparable to the particular wavelength, which would be several cm for the highest frequencies you can probably hear.)
Ted
Vic,
I'm out of my depth in this subject. Can you explain what exactly has changed in the stream from your Saint-Saens CD between the source (the CD player I presume) and the speakers in your new set-up? It's probably obvious to many, but not to me.
Chris A.Gnostic