What equipment do you use?

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33lp
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RE: What equipment?

Tagalie is correct. Despite the so-called technical advances in the last 50 years there has NOT been an increase in audio quality, certainly not for orchestral recordings. There's no point in some lossless studio master or super bluray recording if the studio master recording is not up to the job.I have listened today (on an all valve system with my own phono stage & pre-amp and kit built Audio Note 300B SE power amp) to the rightly famous Michelangeli Ravel concerto, recorded I think in 1957 (on Testament's LP pressing) and what I consider arguably Ansermet's best recording, Falla's Three Cornered Hat (on an Ace of Diamonds pressing)  which gives a publication date of 1961. I found the presence, immediacy & stereo imaging of these recordings simply stunning giving me the realism & excitement I have never had from a digital master recording. Even transferred to CD these early stereos wipe the floor with most of today's efforts. Reasons?

1. The producers & engineers of half a century ago had a different idea to those of today as to what constituted ideal recorded sound.

2. The days when the major companies had their dedicated teams of producers & engineers who worked together to produce the "company sound" and knew their  recording venues inside out are long gone. Everything today is contracted out.

3. So-called "live" recordings are made today in venues with poor acoustics unsuited to the making of recordings (for economic reasons).

4. The simple microphone techniques used in the early days of stereo with fewer microphones than used today gave better results. The balance engineer making a 2 track master (with Decca & EMI) had to get it right (some like Mercury used 3 microphones & made a 3 track master). There was no multi tracking from umpteen microphones then putting the recording together like a jig saw puzzle on the editing computer. (There was a letter on this topic in the Magazine a month or two back).

5. Valve tape recorders with no noise reduction systems were used.

6. Dissecting the sound into billions of pieces then sticking it together again (ie digital technology ) had not appeared.

7. Serious listeners bought serious kit. Note Tagalie's comment on those who don't care listening only on poor quality mp3 players. Has this led companies to take less interest in audio quality?

But then, of course, some may think my post name should be luddite....

33lp
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RE: What equipment?

PS. The 300B valve (tube for our transatlantic friends) was designed about 82 years ago for the first cinema amplifiers. How's that for progress....

GoldenEars
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RE: What equipment?

tagalie wrote:

...Immediately I miss the transparency of the Quads, but the KEFs are far kinder to those strident 1980s DG recordings...

...realized that, good as the bass and sound-stage is on those Chailly's, there's a laser-like glare in the higher-mid-range - violins above the stave, fff high woodwind...

Despite all the technical advances in the past 50 years I'm hard put to identify a consistent improvement in recording quality. In fact the overall standard seems to have slipped. Recording levels have crept up, particularly in rock and jazz music, and the whole industry appears to be catering to people looking for maximum impact rather than subtlety in their music.

You've pretty much said it all - and it's not pretty!  If you've not read it, you might want to take a look at Norman Lebrecht's book "Maestros, Masterpieces and Madness" (The Secret Life and Shameful Death of the Classical Record Industry).

DG are especially naughty - one of my most troublesome CDs is Holst's Planets Suite with Karajan/BPO, which was put out in some weird early digital version after the great man's death, apparently with his posthumous consent!  I use it to audition equipment (along with a range of other stuff) and have yet to hear a truly convincing rendition.  Strident is quite a kind description here.  DG don't do the Amadeus Quartet any favours on CD, either, and I remember the original LPs (having brought the complete Beethoven quartets back in my hand luggage from West Germany in the late 1970s)

"Violins above the stave" - exactly.  With a sudden increase in dynamic, the sound is positively execrable, far worse in many ways than through my £10 computer speakers and motherboard soundcard.  But the Audiolab 8200A is unquestionably too strident in the treble and so made a bad situation far worse.

That lack of reliability is why I'm still emotionally invested in radio.  Even there, on the gold standard of Radio 3, things have slipped.  I recall older live broadcasts (through a Quad FM3, admittedly) being much more consistent.  Now there are more audible technical errors and irritatingly higher compression.  Ultimately it's still swings and roundabouts - less information compared with a CD, but what information is left is often musically preferable.

Levelling a recording should be (in principle) so simple - set up during rehearsal so the peak value doesn't distort and keep away from the ambient noise floor at the quietest section.  Then don't touch anything!  Sound too primitive?  Apparently it is, nowadays.  Bump up the level for effect and digitally inter-cut takes (no-one will notice - will they?)  Erm, often we do, alas!

On the upside, at least it should encourage us to support musicians by attending more concerts.  Downside?  Not really practical at 3 p.m. on a Tuesday, out in the provinces.

Note: Many, many years ago I heard some Quad ESLs through a Quad valve system.  That's what got my Dad (and me) into hi-fi.  Literally and metaphorically, they were a revelation.

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Listening through Arcam FMJ T32 ♪ Audiolab 8200CD ♪ Arcam FMJ A38 ♪ KEF Q55.2s ♪ Russ Andrews & Clearer Audio mains handling ♪ van den Hul The Second interconnects ♪ QED original cable

SpiderJon
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RE: What equipment?

33lp wrote:
There's no point in some lossless studio master or super bluray recording if the studio master recording is not up to the job.

You may well have a point, as there's no doubt both recording and reproduction technologies have changed over the past few decades.

But there's as much 'subjective preference' in the old(er) approaches as in the new(er) ones - eg, a 'company sound' (surely either a recorded sound is faithful to the original or it's not?), what constituted 'ideal recorded sound' (surely there's just one 'ideal'), the distortion of valve amplifiers (it may be pleasant distortion, but it's distortion nonetheless), the various types of distortion inherent on LPs, not to mention the limited dynamic range of vinyl.

Plus, comments like "Serious listeners bought serious kit. Note Tagalie's comment on those who don't care listening only on poor quality mp3 players" seem a bit inaccurately judgemental.  

'Serious' kit may just be better marketed than 'other' kit, rather than providing any real sonic benefit. People who 'care' about the music may be more interested in listening to the actual music than what it 'sounds' like. Eg, one of the most moving things I heard was on my bedside clock-radio - a mono and doubtless very cheap speaker with a limited range.  It just happened to be played when I was listening - but it was the music that mattered, not how I was listening to it.

 Stereo imaging is an interesting specific issue. It's often cited as a hallmark of a good recording. But, speaking personally, whenever I've heard an orchestra or a band, it's very hard - if not impossible - to pin-point the origin of a specific instrument - it's certainly never as distinct as it appears to be on some recordings.

Maybe if you'd been writing when stereo was introduced, you might be bemoaning how faddish stereo is, and how mono is a superior technology, or debating narrow v broad separation (see, eg, 'Stereo Waxing in Pioneer Stage as Techniques Vary' in The Billboard, January 1959).

It's also tempting to wonder if you'd detect the subjective differences you mention - 'presence', 'immediacy' - if you didn't know what source you were listening to.

I have no doubt that there are genuine differences in the quality of recordings - between ones made at different times, and between different recordings made at about the same time.  I just think a lot of the differences are more subjective than you suspect.

 

 

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tagalie
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RE: What equipment do you use?

Without a doubt, there’s a fair amount of subjectivity in our assessment of the quality of recorded sound. That old analogue difference that many hanker after is immediately apparent when you put on an lp, but I’m not as convinced as some that it’s necessarily a ‘good’ difference. I’m sure many of us have had the experience of being invited to hear someone’s prized hi-fi system and come away thinking he/she must have cloth ears. A view that’s probably reciprocated when that person listens to ours. So much comes down to what we're used to, and individual taste.

With rock and non-acoustic jazz there’s a case for saying that the search for hi-fi nirvana is a fool’s errand. Recorded sound is totally in the hands of the record producer and, more often than not, totally different from how the band sounds live. Going back 40 years, if record producers had put out discs that faithfully reproduced the sound of a band live, they’d have been lynched.

With acoustic music it’s a different story. Most of us want our recordings to faithfully mimic the sound of an orchestra, voice, solo instrument, live. Voice should be easiest, lying mostly within a range reproducible with reasonable accuracy for the past 60 years or longer. Even so, I’ve heard people claim that some voices – Susan Graham’s for instance, sound far better live than on any record. When it comes to orchestral sound, I have to say that when I close my eyes at a concert and concentrate on the various instruments there’s something there that I’ve yet to hear any recording, on any equipment, reproduce with complete accuracy. Strings in particular. It’s that soft, poised but focused sheen that comes out on so many recordings as glare.

Nevertheless, there’s no doubt that some equipment and some recordings can get a lot closer to the live experience than others, and if the quest for accurate reproduction of sound has been abandoned or postponed while attention, and money, is diverted elsewhere, then that’s a cause for regret I believe. Ersatz is OK as long as people can recognize it for what it is. If people accept it as a legitimate replacement for 'real' and even prefer it (I'm not talking only about music here), that gets a bit worrying.

33lp
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RE: What equipment?

To answer some of SpiderJon's comments there are two very obvious differences in recording quality currently on the G player with the Mahler 10 excerpts. Placing the Rattle after the Chailly does the former no favours sonically. I would say the Chailly has some presence & immediacy whilst to my ears the Rattle is somewhat dull & acoustically dead.

By company sound perhaps I should have said venue sound as very few venues were used in the early days of stereo. Decca used the Kingsway Hall & Walthamstow Town Hall whilst EMI used Kingsway & Abbey Road with occasional forays to the Liverpool Philharmonic Hall. They did use the Free Trade Hall in Manchester to record the Halle but I once read EMI did not like that venue & preferred to record the Halle when they visited London although of course Pye, initially with the Mercury team, did successfully use this venue. Overseas EMI were mainly using the Salle Wagram in Paris whilst Decca used the Victoria Hall in Geneva & the Sofiensaal in Vienna. The Victoria Hall did have a deeper richer sound than the others but it did remain consistent even as Roy Wallace, who made the first ever stereo recording issued commercially in Europe there in 1954 (Rimsky Korsakov's Antar which still sounds pretty good on CD), experimented with different microphone techniques. In my opinion these recordings are, to quote Quad's (was it?) slogan "the closest approach to the original sound".

As to dynamic range I find more than enough on some Mahler & Bruckner symphony LPs.

 CDs are by no means exempt from distortion as Noel Keywood has written on many occasions in Hi Fi World magazine. I don't particularly want to start a valve vs transistor debate, not least as I have never owned a transistor amplifier: each has its adherents. Transistor amps are however by no means exempt from distortion. Most operate in Class B mode (the much praised Sugden being one of the few exceptions) which gives rise to crossover distortion which has to be tamed by the designer. As most valve amps operate in Class A mode they have no crossover distortion. Also transistor amps usually have more feedback than valve amps which can affect the sound. My 300B SE amp has no feedback. The aforementioned magazine recently tested 8 amplifiers from £1200 to £1500 and awarded first prize jointly to a £1200 valve amp & £1500 transistor amp: each to his own!

Ultimately of course it is the music that matters otherwise I wouldn't spend so much of my time listening to transfers of 78s.

SpiderJon
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RE: What equipment? RE: What equipment?

33lp wrote:
As to dynamic range I find more than enough on some Mahler & Bruckner symphony LPs.

That's fine - but it remains the case that CDs, and  SACDs, DVD-A, etc, have greater dynamic range than LPs, and are, therefore, more likely to provide (or, at least, are more capable of providing) "the closest approach to the original sound" (and you were right, it was Quad's slogan).  

33lp wrote:
CDs are by no means exempt from distortion... Transistor amps are however by no means exempt from distortion.

I hadn't meant to imply either of those things (and, to be honest, I don't think I did).  

I was only trying to point out that LPs, valves, etc - 'old(er)' technology - are no more inherently 'accurate' in terms of reproducing the actual sound that was recorded than are 'new(er)' technologies (and may, arguably, be less so).

There are so many variables, limitations and technical compromises through-out the chain from the original recording, to the playback of the chosen medium on which the recording is encoded, that all that ultimately matters is whether the listener is happy enough with what the music sounds like - indeed, as you yourself say...

33lp wrote:
Ultimately of course it is the music that matters...

And about that I am more than happy to agree.

 

 

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GoldenEars
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RE: What equipment?

GoldenEars wrote:

"Violins above the stave" - exactly.  With a sudden increase in dynamic, the sound is positively execrable, far worse in many ways than through my £10 computer speakers and motherboard soundcard.  But the Audiolab 8200A is unquestionably too strident in the treble and so made a bad situation far worse.

Just to note that I set up my A38 amp tonight.  "Out-of-the-box" it sounds great (perhaps a bit rough for the first 30 mins, but it was in a very cold box!) and the string problem is minimised - as I'd hoped.  Of course, having been sensitised to it, I'll always be looking for over-brightness from now on.  The A38 promises to be a very capable piece of kit.  When it settles in, I'll do some serious listening and find out if it really does the business.

P.S. I've got a T32 tuner, not a 62 (senior moment!) but for some reason can't edit my own post.  All my other posts seem to be available.  Ideas?

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Listening through Arcam FMJ T32 ♪ Audiolab 8200CD ♪ Arcam FMJ A38 ♪ KEF Q55.2s ♪ Russ Andrews & Clearer Audio mains handling ♪ van den Hul The Second interconnects ♪ QED original cable

33lp
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RE: What equipment? RE: What equipment?

SpiderJon wrote "...valves etc...are no more inherently "accurate"...than are new(er) technologies (and may arguably be less so).

I wasn't going to comment but have just read the following in the review of a new valve amplifier. "....valves that were designed for audio use. Unlike transistors designed for general industrial use possessing inadequacies for audio amplification that have to be covered over with electronic sticking plaster called feedback." Noel Keywood  (designer of one of my valve amplifiers) HiFi World magazine.

SpiderJon
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RE: What equipment?

33lp wrote:

SpiderJon wrote "...valves etc...are no more inherently "accurate"...than are new(er) technologies (and may arguably be less so).

I wasn't going to comment but have just read the following in the review of a new valve amplifier. "....valves that were designed for audio use. Unlike transistors designed for general industrial use possessing inadequacies for audio amplification that have to be covered over with electronic sticking plaster called feedback." Noel Keywood  (designer of one of my valve amplifiers) HiFi World magazine.

It seems a rather misleading comment by Mr Keywood.

The criticism of "transistors designed for general industrial use" is something of a strawman - transistors can be (and are) designed for audio use as well. 

Similarly, transistor-based amps can be designed to operate without feedback, too.  

So whatever issue Mr Keywood might have with transistor-based amplifiers, it's not that transistors can't be designed for audio use, nor the fact that simply because they're transistors they must, of necessity, require feedback.

In any case, feedback is not inherently "bad". True, if mis-applied it can produce terrible results - but so can a badly designed amp without feedback.

If feedback is correctly designed and results in linearity and very low levels of  distortion (take your pick which type you think less of is better), what's the issue?

Also, whilst you may be eliminating feedback in the final stage of  amplification between your source and your speakers, there will almost inevitably have been feedback used in the systems that recorded, mastered and manufactured the source you're using.  

If the sound has survived all that, it seems unnecessary - or at least  pointless - to seek to eliminate feedback in the 'final stage', as it's not going to undo any harm already done by feedback circuits earlier in the chain - and, on the assumption you think the source is of sufficient quality to listen to, any earlier use of feedback presumably didn't cause any harm anyway.

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RE: What equipment?

tagalie wrote:
...

Despite all the technical advances in the past 50 years I'm hard put to identify a consistent improvement in recording quality. In fact the overall standard seems to have slipped. Recording levels have crept up, particularly in rock and jazz music, and the whole industry appears to be catering to people looking for maximum impact rather than subtlety in their music. Andrew Everard posted an interesting mini-article, Nov. Gramophone I believe, about how the direction of the recording industry has switched towards convenience of access and use, away from a quest for higher recording quality. ....

I'm sorry to be the contrarian here but I really do feel that recording quality has, on average, greatly improved, especially in the last decade.  Undoubtedly the average listener to music -- not a classical music listener to be sure -- has moved to MP3 or equivalent, but there is a strong body of audiophiles out here who have not been totally ignored by the recording industry.

I can give many examples of recently records that deliver much better sound than recordings of yore, e.g. the famous Mercury Living Presence or RCA Living Stereo.

SpiderJon
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RE: What equipment?

w_d_bailey@yahoo.ca wrote:
I can give many examples of recently records that deliver much better sound than recordings of yore, e.g. the famous Mercury Living Presence or RCA Living Stereo.

Just a few would suffice, although the more you can give, the more likely people will have one or more of them, in order to be able to make a comparison for themselves.

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w_d_bailey@yahoo.ca
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RE: What equipment?

SpiderJon wrote:

w_d_bailey@yahoo.ca wrote:
I can give many examples of recently records that deliver much better sound than recordings of yore, e.g. the famous Mercury Living Presence or RCA Living Stereo.

Just a few would suffice, although the more you can give, the more likely people will have one or more of them, in order to be able to make a comparison for themselves.

Sure.  Here are a few at random ...

If you need more I'll have to get back to you!

 

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RE: What equipment?

w_d_bailey@yahoo.ca wrote:

Sure.  Here are a few at random ...

Thanks - although I think a simple list might have been preferable to so many images :-)

Sadly I only have one of those - the Pärt/Hillier. I'd agree it's an excellent recording.  But it's tricky to compare to a Mercury Living Presence recordings (as exemplars of a "recording of yore") - I'm really not sure which, if any, of the ones I have are sufficiently 'similar' to Pärt to enable a valid comparison of recording quality.

I do, however, have the Mercury Living Presence recording of Bartók's 'Concerto for Orchestra', performed by the LSO and Dorati, so it's a shame I don't also have the Budapest Festival Orchestra and Fischer.  But it will need to be something pretty special to "deliver much better sound" (as you put it) than the Mercury recording of the same work.

 

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"Louder! Louder! I can still hear the singers!"

- Richard Strauss to the orchestra, at a rehearsal.

w_d_bailey@yahoo.ca
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RE: What equipment?

SpiderJon wrote:

...  But it's tricky to compare to a Mercury Living Presence recordings (as exemplars of a "recording of yore") - I'm really not sure which, if any, of the ones I have are sufficiently 'similar' to Pärt to enable a valid comparison of recording quality.

I do, however, have the Mercury Living Presence recording of Bartók's 'Concerto for Orchestra', performed by the LSO and Dorati, so it's a shame I don't also have the Budapest Festival Orchestra and Fischer.  But it will need to be something pretty special to "deliver much better sound" (as you put it) than the Mercury recording of the same work.

I don't want to leave anyone with the impression that I'm disrespecting Mercury Living Presence.  I have a few (on CD, unfortunately not the Bartók) and they are typically excellent.  A combination of good recording venue, good recording (three only, carefully set up microphones only), and minimal mastering ensured a great, realistic ambience. (From what I've heard a fairly intimate, small-concert hall-"ish" sound).  But I think there are many good quite recent recordings that are as good or, as I said, better.

Nor should we loose sight of the fact that the MLS where extraordinarly good relative to other recordings of that time (at least).  Some of that era were pretty attrocious -- the typical DGG comes to mind.  So it's just not accurate to say that older recordings were better in general than comtemporary ones, IMO.