A great ninth?
Tue, Aug 14 2012, 10:45PM
Wed, Aug 15 2012, 8:17PM
#2
RE: A great ninth?
Several greats, Fricsay being one of them, I agree. I can add Gunter Wand, Karajan '77, Szell (Cleveland, Sony Classical), Furtwangler (Lucerne, 1954), Reiner, Solti '72....Nufff.
Wed, Aug 15 2012, 8:31PM
#3
RE: A great ninth?
Thanks for the recommendation – I agree – and sorry for the confusion. I was going to post a comment about Philip Glass’ ninth symphony until my one year old went for my coffee cup and I posted a blank!
I listen widely to classical music and have always been intrigued by Glass’ minimalist style. Although he has a truly unique and individual voice, I’ve never been totally convinced about his “greatness” as a composer, until, spurred on by Gramophone’s positive review, I bought the new recording of the ninth.
I am really bowled over by it. Such a strong piece, with so much to say. Powerful, emotional, hypnotic. Great textures and sounds. I have heard 2,3,4 and 7(Toltec) and thought they were pretty good. But then this ninth tops them all. Who does that remind you of? Dvorak, Bruckner, Mahler, Schubert, Beethoven? It is great that music is being written in our age that could rank alongside.
I know there are some strong opinions amongst regular forum goers, but before I am disparaged for not disparaging Glass consider that many composers have been under-appreciated and even treated with hostility in their time – Mozart himself, Berlioz, Mahler, Bruckner, etc. Equally some composers celebrated in their time have been judged less well by posterity.
Glass’ late but headlong symphonic cycle (and he has completed his tenth!) will leave him a legacy to compare well with many others in my judgement. Listen to his ninth and you may feel the same.
Wed, Aug 15 2012, 9:50PM
#4
RE: A great ninth?
You build us up, and then you mention Philip Glass. Oh dear.
Wed, Aug 15 2012, 10:15PM
#5
RE: A great ninth?
"Oh dear", indeed, Alice.
Glass' Ninth alongside Beethoven's or Dvorak's is fair enough, isn't it?
Anyway, as long as he accepts that Glass' greatness is "misunderstood" by his time and he will be justified...sometime in the future...let it happen. We won't be around...most of us (it's not going to happen that soon)...And, if that happens, people won't need Beethoven or Dvorak anymore. Glass will supersede them. Bravo!
Parla
Fri, Aug 17 2012, 11:17PM
#6
RE: A great ninth?
Where I live there are six visiting orchestras a year who play very safe programmes (Beethoven 5, Mendelssohn Violin Concerto, etc.) to a quite elderly audience. If they put in modern pieces the subscriptions would not be renewed and the series would collapse. I'm one of the few people below the age of 40 attending.
The standard core repertoire is amazing and I love it but music cannot survive as a museum piece and to remain relevant and attract new audiences, new music needs to be written which reflects its times and influences.
Too much atonality in music is not really that clever. It has led us down a blind alley that has forced listeners away. Contemporary music can be accessible, dare I say tuneful, without being derided and that is where people like Glass stand a chance at least. By the way I enjoy Gorecki, Ades, MacMillan and several other contemporary and more "difficult" composers.
If I'm wrong then I bow to the superior intellect of Messrs Alice and Parla and keep my peace!
Sat, Aug 18 2012, 6:03AM
#7
RE: A great ninth?
From what you claim in your 1st paragraph, Graham, the "core Classical Music" is not that much of a surviving "museum piece" and, if it remains relevant to people above 40 in your community, it will still "remain valid" and attract some more new audiences. By all means "new music" is needed, but, by trying to "reflect its times and influences", quite often it can go astray, far from what Classical Music is all about.
I think my reaction and possibly Alice's lies on the issue of Glass' Ninth (by simply calling it " a great Ninth?") versus Beethoven's, which is the only known as The Ninth.
By all means, it's your prerogative to prefer any kind of music and composers you think they "reflect our times and..", but Glass and all of his kind cannot be considered as a fair continuation of what you perceive as a "museum piece". That's why subscriptions in your six visiting orchestras yearly program may collapse, if the "museum piece" even diminishes in the actual schedule. I have listened and heard plenty of our "modern and trendy" composers, who can reflect our "jarring new magnificent world", but I can easily forget them and their works, but I can still remember every single note (so to speak) of Schubert's Piano Trio in E flat or Mozart's String Quintet in g minor. That's the difference. Frankly speaking, as for my needs in a very secular, extremely modern lifestyle I am in, I find this "core of Classic repertory" much more relevant and significant than our trendy modern friends. (There are some exceptions called Piazzolla, Bernstein's Music for the Theatre, Sondheim, etc., but they are a bit off the Classical mark, unfortunately).
Parla
Sat, Aug 18 2012, 7:53AM
#8
RE: A great ninth?
By all means "new music" is needed, but, by trying to "reflect its times and influences", quite often it can go astray, far from what Classical Music is all about ...
... I have listened and heard plenty of our "modern and trendy" composers, who can reflect our "jarring new magnificent world"...
... Frankly speaking, as for my needs in a very secular, extremely modern lifestyle I am in, I find this "core of Classic repertory" much more relevant and significant than our trendy modern friends....
Now here's a topic that ought to have legs if ever there was one!
I'm broadly sympathetic to Parla's position here but it does raise lots of questions, like:
- If new music is needed to reflect its times and influences, what constitutes "going astray"?
- What is classical music "all about"? (Is it "all about" anything?)
- What is relevance and significance, in this context?
I'm reading Patrick O'Brian's magnificent biography of Picasso at the moment and I can't help making parallels with contemporary and subsequent reactions to his various innovatory styles with our reactions to music out of our comfort zone.
Well, I'm agnostic on this one but would love to follow a lively debate here.
Vic.
Sat, Aug 18 2012, 12:33PM
#9
RE: A great ninth?
I take Parla's point about comparing Glass' ninth with Beethoven's. I have always considered Beethoven's Ninth to be the greatest work ever created by an artist in any medium and Glass' is still some way off even though I like it.
I also remain optimistic that, whatever the distractions of shallow short shelf life pop music and celeb culture that are force fed to our young people, enough intelligence will remain in enough of them to appreciate the devastatingly emotional effect of a Schubert late piano sonata for example.
Certain obvious artistic and practical criteria need to remain for music to remain "classical" and not "go stray". Everyone will differ on this. For me Karl Jenkins and Einaudi have both "gone (seriously) astray," if ever they were classical to start with, but Glass hasn't quite. It's not always easy to draw the line. Perhaps you can't get too popular!
I just need to think that there are a good few composers out there now who aren't too astringent to put 99% off the public off them and that we have some classics of our time that the public at large will actually listen to and which will endure into the future. Then I can go to the pub and talk about classical music rather than joining this forum!
Graham
Sat, Aug 18 2012, 6:43PM
#10
RE: A great ninth?
Thanks a lot, Graham, for understanding my points. At least, the first three paragraphs of your last post are perfectly O.K. with me.
As for your last one, well, you may be more positive and you may be right in the long run, but I cannot find all these ingredients of soemething truly memorable (like in the core Classical field) in any of the living composers anywhere. By the way, recently we had a very pertinent lively debate on the "most important living composer".
Whether in the "pub" or here, I wish you all the best,
Parla
P.S.: Vic, I would love to answer your questions and start a "lively debate", but I think we have explored this area in the thread of the "most important living composer". So, let's see if anybody else wishes to start or contribute to a debate-digression on this matter.
Sat, Aug 18 2012, 11:45PM
#11
RE: A great ninth?
Thanks Parla. I just read that living composers debate. You guys certainly covered some ground!
Happy listening.
All the best,
Graham
I suppose you mean a great Beethoven 9th. One of the finest recordings is Fricsay conducting the Berlin Philharmonic (DG originals). I have several 9ths and this is indeed a memorable performance. The sound is also very good given its vintage.