Any thoughts on the completion of Bruckner's 9th?
Wed, Jul 11 2012, 11:19PM
Okay, I'll confess I missed this one completely until just yesterday, so I'm still trying to wrap my mind around the fact that, not only has somebody gone and finished Bruckner's 9th for him, there are several competing reconstructions that have now run to several editions, spawning (of course) a small library of competing recordings of same. For anyone who's as uninformed as I was, here's the link to an informative article on the subject: http://www.stereophile.com/musicrecordings/bruckners_symphony_no9_finall...
I've gone ahead and ordered the Simon Rattle/Berlin recording, since it presents the most recent (2011) revision of the most highly regarded completion effort. However, as a newcomer to the subject, I'd like to hear what those who are more knowledgeable have to say about the Bruckner 9th completion project, generally or specifically. Do you approve or disapprove of the enterprise? Do you like or dislike any particular editions and/or performances?
I start from the assumption that the completion of unfinished musical works is legitimate and useful, at least depending on the state and quality of the piece in question. In addition to the obvious examples mentioned in the article (Mozart's Requiem, Puccini's Turandot), I would offer Berg's Lulu and Borodin's Prince Igor as works of the first rank that we would not have -- at least not intact -- without the intervention of others. Then there are conjectural oddities, like Beethoven's 10th Symphony. So -- another question: what makes a work worth completing or not?
Thu, Jul 12 2012, 12:05PM
#2
RE: Any thoughts on the completion of Bruckner's 9th?
I personally hate any "intervention" of any kind to the original score, even if it might be "legitimate", well researched and worked out. Particularly, in instrumental, Chamber Music and Orchestral works, I found any effort useless, even if it might be a very interesting or pleasant listening.
In Choral and much more in the Operatic works, there is a need for their "theatrical" resolution. So, in some cases (Mozart's Requiem, Puccini's Turandot, etc.) some efforts for their "completion" might work, at least for their theatrical, if not musical, perspective.
The most striking example of a failure of "filling the gap" is the towering penultimate Fugue (Contrapunctus XIV) from the Art of Fugue by Bach. Despite the very laborious and honest efforts to "complete" the Fugue, it has been accepted by almost any potential player(s) to respect and perform the unfinished original score. In any case, who could be at the height of Bach to...continue and finish the Fugue, which is a riddle by itself.
As for Bruckner's Ninth, Rattle's performance makes full justice to the whole "project". It's good, almost inspiring listening experience, but it's not Bruckner itself. It's Bruckner with "crutches"!
In other words, Bruckner's Ninth works perfectly as it is (even if it leaves the feeling of a not completed work) like Schubert's "Unfinished". I don't think it needs any...accessory, even the most accomplished and well constructed one, unless it is for occasional listening.
Parla
Fri, Jul 13 2012, 10:03PM
#3
RE: Any thoughts on the completion of Bruckner's 9th?
c hris -- thanks for the tip; I read over the prior discussion and learned a good deal.
Fri, Jul 13 2012, 10:06PM
#4
RE: Any thoughts on the completion of Bruckner's 9th?
Thanks, John. In terms of "framing the experience," I'm deliberately NOT trotting out my three-movement version (Jochum/Dresden) until after I've heard the new Rattle with finale. I don't know the work terribly well yet anyway, so I'm hoping to get used to the 9th as a full 4-movement work.
Fri, Jul 13 2012, 10:25PM
#5
RE: Any thoughts on the completion of Bruckner's 9th?
I personally hate any "intervention" of any kind to the original score, even if it might be "legitimate", well researched and worked out. Particularly, in instrumental, Chamber Music and Orchestral works, I found any effort useless, even if it might be a very interesting or pleasant listening.
In Choral and much more in the Operatic works, there is a need for their "theatrical" resolution. So, in some cases (Mozart's Requiem, Puccini's Turandot, etc.) some efforts for their "completion" might work, at least for their theatrical, if not musical, perspective.
The most striking example of a failure of "filling the gap" is the towering penultimate Fugue (Contrapunctus XIV) from the Art of Fugue by Bach. Despite the very laborious and honest efforts to "complete" the Fugue, it has been accepted by almost any potential player(s) to respect and perform the unfinished original score. In any case, who could be at the height of Bach to...continue and finish the Fugue, which is a riddle by itself.
As for Bruckner's Ninth, Rattle's performance makes full justice to the whole "project". It's good, almost inspiring listening experience, but it's not Bruckner itself. It's Bruckner with "crutches"!
In other words, Bruckner's Ninth works perfectly as it is (even if it leaves the feeling of a not completed work) like Schubert's "Unfinished". I don't think it needs any...accessory, even the most accomplished and well constructed one, unless it is for occasional listening.
Parla
Parla -- It didn't occur to me, until I read your post, how many of the most "accepted" completions are, in fact, vocal works. I had dismissed completions of Bach's Contrapunctux XIV from my memory, and have never in fact wanted to hear one. I almost bought a recording of the "Beethoven's 10th" movement, but decided not to after hearing some samples which didn't convince me that there was enough genuine Beethoven in the mix. Like many others, I'm lukewarm about the Mahler 10th -- even though the short score is intact, the second movement as we have it seems (to me at least) in serious need of structural revision, and Deryck Cooke's orchestration tends to sound a bit bland. Serviceable, but not part of the musical argument as it would be had Mahler done the work himself.
I like the distinction you make between "theatrical" and "musical." Speaking of the Mozart and the Puccini, it is satisfying to have all of the Requiem or Turandot text set to music, but it's all too clear where the inspiration leaves off in both cases. "Prince Igor" is a different story. As I understand it, Borodin's sketches were a disorganized mess, so Rimsky and Glazunov had to do a considerable amount of sequencing, orchestration, and wholesale composing to produce the finished work -- which, to my ears, appears seamless and of uniformly highly quality.
Have you tried any of the versions of Charlie Ives' "Universe Symphony"?
Fri, Jul 13 2012, 11:01PM
#6
RE: Any thoughts on the completion of Bruckner's 9th?
Not really, mussessein. Ives is not my cup of tea. Not at all!
(As far as I can recall there are very few recordings of this work, anyway).
Parla
Fri, Jul 13 2012, 11:31PM
#7
RE: Any thoughts on the completion of Bruckner's 9th?
Ives is not my cup of tea. Not at all!
Has there ever been a better saying than 'not my cup of tea'. The 'bee's knees' maybe.
I can't remember what I was going to say now .... er ...oh yes. Hokusai, the japanese guy who liked to paint mountains, well pictures of mountains anyway, very rearly actually finished, if at all painted any of his works. The idea was the important thing. He would let his students, or apprentices, know what he wanted and let them 'do the work'. If you can fit the finished product into this situation then I really don't see what the problem is. If art is one tenth inspiration and nine tenths perspiration then why not let some hungry young turk do the labour. I think some greek schools also followed this principle.
Parla, write me a reply and put some German quotes in it. Let's see how it works in practice.
Sat, Jul 14 2012, 1:33AM
#8
RE: Any thoughts on the completion of Bruckner's 9th?
I'm not in principle against the idea of trying to compete a work if most of it has been written down by the composer. The Mahler 10 completion to my ears works very well, but so far I haven't been impressed with the Bruckner 9 completion.
Perhaps the 3 movement 9th is in a way so perfect that the new finale disturbs that, but that of course shouldn't be a reason for not doing it.
Bruckner is the best symphonist there is, and the perfect musical architect. I havn't yet come to admire and feel the architecture (structure) of the Samale-Phillips-Cohrs-Mazuca finale of the 9th, but maybe it will come (and maybe it won't).
In the end it might be a personal choice to make for any listener. I know too little about the actual athenticity of the material - so far it doesn't sound "Bruckner" to me (yet).
Strangely, with the Mahler 10 I have come to admire the completion as one of Mahler's better works. I wonder what that tells me about Mahler... It is based on less "original" material than the Bruckner 9 finale, but somehow it works.
Sat, Jul 14 2012, 6:24PM
#9
RE: Any thoughts on the completion of Bruckner's 9th?
Perhaps the 3 movement 9th is in a way so perfect that the new finale disturbs that, but that of course shouldn't be a reason for not doing it.
Bruckner is the best symphonist there is, and the perfect musical architect. I havn't yet come to admire and feel the architecture (structure) of the Samale-Phillips-Cohrs-Mazuca finale of the 9th, but maybe it will come (and maybe it won't).
In the end it might be a personal choice to make for any listener. I know too little about the actual athenticity of the material - so far it doesn't sound "Bruckner" to me (yet).
Ganymede -- My suspicion is that part of your reservation about the Bruckner 9 finale is your very familiarity with the existing 3-movement version, coupled with conductors' tendency to make that Adagio sound like a true conclusion. It can be difficult to break into one's own established expectations of a work. Someone like me, who doesn't know the work terribly well, may have an easier time absorbing the reconstruction.
Sat, Jul 14 2012, 7:31PM
#10
RE: Any thoughts on the completion of Bruckner's 9th?
Do we need the final movement. Schubert's unfinished works well, do we need another movement. Bruckner's 9th is fine as it is. do we need another movement. Although it may be good, as an accademic exercise, to hear the completion, we still have to ask ourselves 'does it add to the work'. The answer can be 'Yes', 'No' or 'undecided'. Schubert's undecided symphony.
Sun, Jul 15 2012, 12:59AM
#11
RE: Any thoughts on the completion of Bruckner's 9th?
I think we start making circles. We repeat the same arguments and the same issues in other ways.
If all these completions work for some, enjoy the listening, whatever it is. If they are worthy of the composer, good music relevant and true continuation or completion of the work(s) in question, these issues are beyond the average listener and actually difficult to answer. For the conservative and true classicist, there is no need for all these endeavours. The best example was the one I gave you about Bach's unfinished Fugue from the Art of Fugue.
Parla
Sun, Jul 15 2012, 10:47AM
#12
RE: Any thoughts on the completion of Bruckner's 9th?
No
Sun, Jul 15 2012, 4:14PM
#13
RE: Any thoughts on the completion of Bruckner's 9th?
Speaking of unfinished symphonies by Schubert, I've just been listening to Berio's Rendering. It made me think of some of the themes which have cropped up in this strand: less, perhaps, the ethics of 'realising' or 'elaborating' or 'completing' unfinished works than the value of doing things with them (or not doing things with them, as it were).
Berio's work is interesting because he presents the sketches for the 10th Symphony within a credible timeframe (roughly 35 minutes: Schubert seems to have planned a 3-movement work, shorter than the 9th) but doesn't add anything to them; instead they're joined by what he called a 'connective tissue' of his own making: a delicate, strange, celesta-dominated backdrop against which the sketches stand in clearer profile.
The result seems to me both artful (it's a 'dual' composition, even if Schubert didn't sign up to it!) and honest: Berio isn't pretending that this is the symphony Schubert would have composed, and his own material is discreet, there to support and frame (a bit like the blank or underworked parts of an incomplete painting) the unfinished nature of what does exist.
Some people will hate the idea; some will hate the work; but I'm grateful for an opportunity to hear material from the symphony Schubert was working on at the end. The slow movement in particular (Gielen couples his SWR Mahler 6 with the Newbould version of this movement - oh, and with Berg's 3 Orchestral Pieces!) has some very strong and memorable material.
Tue, Jul 17 2012, 1:42PM
#14
RE: Any thoughts on the completion of Bruckner's 9th?
I heard the preview on Radio 3, and do intend to purchase it. I have seen Rattle conduct the 3 movement version many years ago but was a little underwhelmed. I think he has improved since then.
There is some confusion as to what Bruckner actually left. If my understanding is correct, probably nearly all of the score, but only a small extract of this is fully orchestrated. There is also the problem, as to how much his "friends" meddled with things after his death. If the situation is similar to the 4th symphony, then it is unlikely to be ever fully resolved.
Wed, Jul 18 2012, 1:25AM
#15
RE: Any thoughts on the completion of Bruckner's 9th?
I heard the preview on Radio 3, and do intend to purchase it. I have seen Rattle conduct the 3 movement version many years ago but was a little underwhelmed. I think he has improved since then.
There is some confusion as to what Bruckner actually left. If my understanding is correct, probably nearly all of the score, but only a small extract of this is fully orchestrated. There is also the problem, as to how much his "friends" meddled with things after his death. If the situation is similar to the 4th symphony, then it is unlikely to be ever fully resolved.
DarkSkyMan -- My copy of the Rattle CD arrived today and I've listened to it once. No complaints so far about interpretation or performance; from that standpoint it feels like good solid Bruckner to me (although I'm not as familiar with his work as some others who have posted here). The 4th movement IS sketchy -- according to the very detailed liner notes, the first 216 bars (out of 653) are intact, in order, and scored by Bruckner himself. In the middle third, gaps start to appear in the full score, but most are bridged by sketches. In the last third, there is no complete score from Bruckner, and even the sketches start to thin out. Most of the newly composed material is in that last third, including the coda. This "performing version" appears to take into account all material related to the finale that has come to light so far. The problem, apparently, was that Bruckner's friends at his death were allowed to take individual pages from his 4th movement score and sketches as souvenirs, so the material itself is very widely scattered; some of the pages used in this completion surfaced as recently as 2003. My guess is that there is yet more "lost" material out there that may or may not be found. Until then, Rattle's 2012 recording would appear to have the best claim to authenticity.
Hello! Just to let you know that there has been some earlier discussion of this under the thread "Composers and their working methods" (you'll find it on page 2 of 'General Discussion'.
Chris
Chris A.Gnostic