Astor Piazzolla : a great composer for all times?

Eventually, after 17 posts, we have two on the matter of this topic. Thanks a lot P and Caballe.

P, Piazzolla's music is not cafe (or much more cabaret), even in his (what you may find lighter) side, even if he wanted to depict the life in the cafes of his country in the past (see and listen to his Histoire de Tango, a suite for Flute or Violin and Guitar). He didn't write a Symphony, but he composed symphonic orchestral works, like the symphonic poem Tangazo, the fine and progressive Symphonietta, the three orchestral pieces, his Concerto of Bandoneon, the Concerto for Guitar, Bandoneon and String Orchestra as well as his masterpiece, the Four Seasons (of Buenos Aires) for String Orchestra.

He did compose an Opera as well, the unique Maria de Buenos Aires. A rather short but very substantive musically work, based, almost entirely, on the tango tradition!

His music is inspired not generally by the "dance", but his beloved argentinian tango tradition, which, like any great and true to his roots composer, he wanted to elevated to the art form. So, his music, though lighter or "dance inspired", is a serious nationalist one. Of course, he never imagined to become an atonal austrian composer as Schoenberg (despite in his compositions he resorts to polytonality and atonality) or a complex Polish one or even a Hungarian master of their own nationalistic roots. However, he was very happy to see his music, even in his whatever we may call lighter stuff, to be embraced all over the world (people got crazy in Africa with Libertango, others went nuts with Addios Nonino in Asia, audience felt extremely moved with Oblivion in extreme and irrrelevant parts of Europe or even in US). So, that's why I called him a great composer for all times. You don't have to be specially prepared to listen to his music (I have to admit, after so much exposure to music, I need a very "strong stomach" to get to the listening experience of a Penderecki or even Schoenberg and, in some cases, Bartok).

Caballe, I didn't labelled Piazzolla as a great composer. There is already a question mark there, inviting views about the opposite, provided that they are developed and they are not mere opinions of an inexplicable taste. Greatness is not needed to give any validity to just any composer of anytime; it is needed to reward those who contributed more than others to the development of the Classical Music. So, it's your prerogative to dislike or even detest Beethoven, but you have to recognise his role and significance in the field. Otherwise, we create, in a field of utmost excellence and brilliance, a flat platform where any composer can go, as long as some people like him/her, regardless of any other feature or qualification. Exchange of views (and not necessarily of mere opinions) are useful, if they can lead to a common ground, where the holders of the opinions/views may communicate in a way to comprehend each other, on a common basis of understanding.

Music is a specific Art and Classical Music has very specific texture and rules to be ignored or overlooked.

Parla

Surprising! Somebody who finds "superb" what others claim light or dance inspired or even cafe/cabaret type of music.

Greater surprise, all the rest : The Four Seasons are terribly tredious, while any musician I know (in any possible way) adores and considers it as a masterpiece, with its greater exponent Gidon Kremer!

Piazzolla can't orchestrate, but his Tangazo, Sinfonietta, Maria de Buenos Aires, his Concertos are not orchestrated by others, but by himself.

He can't develop, while he uses most of the classic forms of composition, mostly sonata (with or without development), fantasia (the two themes blended in using different ways of composition leading to polytonality or even atonality), variations etc.

He repeat the same few (how many can one expect in each piece of music, particularly in 20th century compositions, where melody is in scarcity) melodies... If the sonata form or fantasia require the repetion (or recapitulation) of the two themes involved, then, so be it. Audiences all over the world never complained about repetitive music of glorious themes and melodies that many composers would envy.

"No invention, no surprise". I have to dare to ask you, Adrian3, how much of Piazzolla's outrput you have listened to and which works in particular?

Parla

Sincerely sorry, Atonal, if I didn't consider your posts as...to the point, but, if I have to remember, in your three posts, you mention: "Errrr, no" (in the question whether you know Piazzolla's music), "cafe-style music" (showing your instant, occasional hearing of his music), "I'm not familiar with his music", "after hearing (not even listening) his instrument, the Bandoneon, I shan't be listening further".

So, maybe, we got each other wrong, but, anyway, you admit you don't know (at least well) Piazzolla and, therefore, your contribution, though always welcome, didn't add a developing view on his music rather than it is a "cafe-style" one (which is not, it is played anywhere, predominantly in  concert halls).

As for my way of approaching different responses by forum members, of course, it's your prerogative to take them as you wish, but I never plan to impose any position but rather to see how far a debate can go in exchanging developing views (not mere opinions, thrown at random and at will). A vibrant forum is the one who can lead to some kind of conclusion and not an exchange of "that's good, oh no, that was not? I enjoyed that, no I didn't and so on).

Finally, this adjective of "Great" I use (of course not exclusively) is to show that, regardless which composer or work we might like or even adore, we have always to bear in mind what is the musical impact of them on the rest of the world or, at least, outside our own microcosmos.

Again, my apologies for any misunderstanding or, even worse, for unintentionally hurting your feelings (you may imagine how I should feel, as I am almost constantly "attacked"...).

Au revoir, cher ami,

Parla

Yes, here we are again. Despite this time you tried to answer point by point my arguments, you cannot refrain from resorting to personal abusive language and attack as the spearhead of your argumentation or the final stroke. Anyway, I will overcome it once more. As for your response:

So, now you "rephrase" your initial statement, you refer to the "theory of discourse" and we add the notion of taste along with opinion. Much to my surprise, while definitions are not a matter of opinions, their application (on specific cases), is again a matter of opinion. Fair enough as statements. On which objective grounds, however?

Music has not been bulit, developed and thrived on opinions or taste, but on very specific rules and definitions. This is what we have been taught for years in the conservatories, in any performing venue and in any collaboration with fellow musicians. We have learned to pursue excellence beyond our or anybody else's opinion, but on the basis of the definitions of what is the perfect pitch, the best posssible tone, the observance of Harmony,  Counterpoint, etc. So, the application of the definition of Harmony didn't come as a matter of our opinion, as whether we like it to implement it or not, but as a "must" each time we have to perform (much more to compose) properly a piece of music. The same for the tone, etc. What we learned is that definitions in Classical Music at least, exist and are observed. We don't apply definitions. Even in any aspect of our life, whenever we refer to a notion or a word, their definitions exist and either we are aware of them (so we can observe and properly use them) or we are not (and we ignore them and have difficulty in communication).

As for the "musical truth", Elvis and Beatles didn't defend, promote and develop any national form of music. They made an extended temporary fame with pleasant songs that, in some cases, can be used even today as a little more than background music (music hall, restaurants with some second rate singers, etc.). Piazzolla's music has the effect of those musicians who are accepted as great national composers. For the Argentinians, he is their pride and national treasure. That's why musicians of the calibre of Barenboim, Kremer, Accardo and the rest I have already mentioned, plus a lot of unsung heroes almost all over the world perform his music (which, despite you have very little knowledge of it, you called it muzak so easily...anyhow).

So, as for the "equal quality", we resolve the issue. There is music which is greater than other, but it is purely a value judgement, an opinion (and taste) to say which is what. So, tomorrow, if somebody wish to say that his taste (whatever it might mean) and, therefore, his opinion (whatever might be implied) make him claim that Madona's songs are a greater music than Mozart's Symphonies is as valid as anybody's view. Very convenient indeed! Fortunately, I can assure you it doesn't apply but only in some forums like this one.

I am at this moment in Beijing, which I visit frequently due to the fact that my wife is Chinese. The people of China are very proud of their traditions, including their national music. However, the way they observe Classical Music is beyond any expectation. Amazing Concert Halls, plenty of performers of any kind, hundreds of conductors, everyday programs on national television, etc. There is an utmost respect, dedication and observance of any rule, tradition and definition of this music. At the same time, they admit that their traditional music, though great for them, has a limited scope compared to Classical and they performed it in special places for those who are interested (like Beijing Opera, which many younger people cannot comprehend and, subsequently, stand). The same I have noticed in every major country in Asia as well as in Africa, where, to my utmost surprise, they show an extreme eagerness to establish Classical Music over their own traditional music forms.

Regarding X Factor's music, I simply have to ignore its ephemeral impact that might have probably in UK and in some parts of the States, since, anywhere else (including here in China) is considered as bad entertainment only, but it is tolerated since it gives some additional jobs and big bucks to some people in the business.

It's not the Moonlight Sonata that marked our civilisation but the output of Beethoven's music as well as the other classic composers. Anywhere, either here in Asia or in Africa, there is an unbelievably great demand of the scores of Bach, Haydn, Mozart etc. Their music is heard in national television, in concert halls, performers go abroad in order to come back and teach their own people this music. Particularly, in Africa those who get a scholarship and succeed in their studies in Europe or in US, when they return, they are treated as "national heroes". That's the impact of Great music and of Great composers accross the Globe and in a considerable time framework.

Anyway, it's quite late here. At the end of the day people might show some more understanding...Who knows?

Parla