Barenboim's 1970s CBS Elgar
Sat, Oct 27 2012, 9:23AM
#2
RE: Barenboim's 1970s CBS Elgar
You make an interesting point here Guillaume. I suppose the critical question here is: does this linguistic difference reflect a different relationship between what in English we might call 'creation' (composition) and re-creation (first performance) or is it just a linguistic curiosity? I must say I have noticed a difference in style of analysis of music between English and French writers, the former drier (dare I say more objective) the latter more 'creative'. Unfortunately my French is poor and i usually have to read the French texts in translation.
This is not the only case. Curiously, obliquely related to this thread, I remember Barenboim (in his Reith Lectures a few years ago) pointing out that the verbal distinction between 'hearing' and 'listening' is not present in all languages, and yet the two do mean something different. Another case is the subtle difference between English 'Poet' and the German 'Dichter". Such small differences can make discussion dangerous or more lively depending on your point of view.
There might also be cultural differences between the shades of meaning implied by the words, satisfaction, pleasure, enjoyment, entertainment - all relevant from the discussion in another parallel thread!
Alas, I'm not a good enough linguist to begin to answer such questions but we must have some polyglot members in the forum who can help?
Chris
Sat, Oct 27 2012, 7:28PM
#3
RE: Barenboim's 1970s CBS Elgar
So, Mr. Guillaume, to avoid further discussion, I merely state what Sviatoslav Richter wrote in his "Diary", published by Princeton University Press in 2001 (S. Richter: Notebooks and Conversations):
" The interpreter is really an executant, carrying out the composer's intentions to the letter. He doesn't add anything that isn't already in the work. If he's talented, he allows us to glimpse the truth of the work that is in itself a thing of genius and that is reflected in him. He shouldn't dominate the music, but should dissolve into it. I don't think that my way of playing has ever changed. Or if it has, I didn't notice. Perhaps, I simply started to play with greater freedom as I threw off the shackles of all that distracts us from the essential. It is by shutting myself away that I've found freedom.
I might have had doubts about the extent to which I managed to play what I intended, but from the beginning I was certain that, for each work, it was in this way, and no other, that it had to be played. Why? It's very simple: because I looked closely at the score. That's all that's required to reflect what it contains. Kurt Sanderling once said of me: 'Not only can he play well, he can also read music'. That wasn't such a bad way of putting it".
So, the musical work does not exist until it is performed only for the audience and the listeners. The musicians, experts, scholars, professionals know what the work of music exactly is (good, great or a mediocrity). So, it is up to the individual listener to go this extra mile to find out this truth as well, instead of simply relying to the "messenger" and his own senses.
Parla
Sat, Oct 27 2012, 7:54PM
#4
RE: Barenboim's 1970s CBS Elgar
" The interpreter is really an executant, carrying out the composer's intentions to the letter. He doesn't add anything that isn't already in the work."
A laughable comment from Richter who knew full well that a piece played exactly as written would be as dreadfully dull as a MIDI rendering. Instead a performer must make subtle changes to tempo (rubato), texture and intonation that could never be notated without making the score unreadable. Richter - a maverick and a genius - was one of the best at playing what is NOT in the score. i.e. "between the lines".
Sun, Oct 28 2012, 12:51AM
#5
RE: Barenboim's 1970s CBS Elgar
I trust, BR, that the whole text I chose is eloquent enough to say what Richter, with enough humility and sincerity, states, contrary to the segment you chose for your own interpretation.
In any case, he does not state anywhere that the piece of music should be "played exactly as written" and he does not exclude the "subtle changes". However, he speaks about the role of the performer in serving the composer's intentions to the letter. He, also very wisely so, adds that the performer shouldn't dominate the music.
If he failed to do what he admits as the task of each performer is another story. The message is: don't pay attention to us. Stick to the work of Music.
Parla
Tue, Oct 30 2012, 1:05AM
#6
RE: Barenboim's 1970s CBS Elgar
Guillaume,
I feel that Parla is Mr Confrontation in this forum, which is a person that says "I dont know about what you are speaking, but I am not agree with you!" oscar.olavarria
Tue, Oct 30 2012, 1:05AM
#7
RE: Barenboim's 1970s CBS Elgar
Guillaume,
I feel that Parla is Mr Confrontation in this forum, which is a person that says "I dont know about what you are speaking, but I am not agree with you!" Regards oscar.olavarria
Tue, Oct 30 2012, 1:19AM
#8
RE: Barenboim's 1970s CBS Elgar
For a newcomer, you did an excellent job in simplifications and generalisations, dear Oscar. Bienvenidos!
Parla
Tue, Oct 30 2012, 1:32AM
#9
RE: Barenboim's 1970s CBS Elgar
Thanks Parla, Im only a beginner...you are The Master! oscar.olavarria
Wed, Oct 31 2012, 5:12PM
#10
RE: Barenboim's 1970s CBS Elgar
I must agree with BR here,but not sure with "subtle". Sviatoslav Richter was a great and unique pianist.That as may be, he is the last person I would use as an example of a performer at service of a composer.Quote or no quote.
Richter's recording of Schubert's last piano sonata D.960 is astonishing,but not necessarily for the right reasons.It,especially the first movement is so unbelievably slow (I refer Parla to my Bernstein post).
I have many recordings of this great sonata.There is only one that is more perverse then Richter, oddly another Russian,Maria Yudina.
Wed, Oct 31 2012, 5:22PM
#11
RE: Barenboim's 1970s CBS Elgar
Perhaps Richter was a good teacher, following the maxim:
"Do as I say, not as I do". !!
Chris
Wed, Oct 31 2012, 5:46PM
#12
RE: Barenboim's 1970s CBS Elgar
Precisely, Chris.
The issue with the quote of Richter is how he saw the role of the performer, not how he developed and experienced it. The quote of Sanderling, chosen by Richter himself, is very subtle but quite revealing too.
Parla
Sun, Feb 10 2013, 12:30AM
#13
RE: Barenboim's 1970s CBS Elgar
As
8. Sea Pictures Yvonne Minton In The South LPO 76579 9/77
Hello, I am trying to track down a copy of this specific recording. Would you be willing to share your copy with me?
Parla
I'd forgotten about this thread.
What's the difference? No musical work exists until it is performed. Many composers have depended on specific performers to realise their works. In English the French word 'premiere' is used for a first performance. In French however the word is 'creation'; the first performance of a work 'creates' it, not merely the act of writing it down.