Baroque Music: Obsolete or Essential?
Thu, Nov 10 2011, 12:13AM
In these three months I have been member of these forums, I haven't seen any thread on Baroque music or composers or particular works of that period, let alone early music. It looks like Classical Music starts around the late Classical period (even Haydn and Mozart are almost conspicuously absent) and thrives as we progress in the Romantic period (with some stronger emphasis on Opera) and in the 20th century (recently we encountered even a half thread on Kilpinen, a very obscure figure of the early 20th century music of Finland). Quite a few people show great interest on minor or less known composers of more recent periods, while Masters like Haendel, C.P.E. Bach, D. Scarlatti, Rameau etc. look like have fallen into oblivion.
Recently, on another thread, I dared to mention -in a joke- the name of Telemann and, to my utter surprise, I received the wrath of another participant, as I have uttered the most offensive name in Classical Music. The way he described the music of this great German Master was beyond any expectation and measure.
Therefore, all the above made me wonder whether, somehow, the real world we live in, is contributing to marginalising or even expelling Baroque Music from our genuine interest in Music. Is it useless by now? Or, maybe, there are some of you who still appreciate this period and believe it is essential listening and constitutes an inextricable and inalienable part of Classical Music, while a considerable number of the composers of that period are great by any standard, after all. (Beethoven used to call C.P.E.Bach the "Great" Bach, had a vast admiration for his music and musicianship, while certain of his works, like the 4th Symphony, have been influenced by the Art of the great son of J.S. Bach).
So, let's see what the verdict might be...
Parla
Thu, Nov 10 2011, 1:42AM
#2
RE: Baroque Music: Obsolete or Essential?
Notespinning tafelmuzak for the most part.
C P E Bach, a one trick pony who made his Sturm und Drang period last all his composing life.
Winton Dean in the fifties asked why Handel's operas were neglected but now they pour out like a water leak from every opera house we can hear the reason why.
We have Rameau, until recently left to the French to bury, on in London at the moment. The production contains nudity. The last Rameau opera I saw contained nudity and that wasn't a saving grace then either.
And what about all those Quantzs, Stamitzs, Dittersdorfs, Albinonis, Rebels, etc. Can they be told apart?
So Beethoven liked some of this tosh did he? He must have been tired and confused at the time.
Thu, Nov 10 2011, 9:02AM
#3
RE: Baroque Music: Obsolete or Essential?
Yes it seems that this forum is mainly focused on the period 1800-80 and anything else gets scant consideration or is blown out of the water as derisory (I exaggerate, maybe).
Who can do without Pergolesi's Stabat Mater?
Marcello's oboe concerto is divine. Zelenka, Byrd, Biber, Teleman (yes his trio sonatas are very listenable), Quantz ......... there's so many - maybe too many but I would say nothing compares with the master J S Bach. If his Cantatas were all I could ever listen to again I'd be a happy man.
Thu, Nov 10 2011, 10:42AM
#4
RE: Baroque Music: Obsolete or Essential?
There is a worrying trend at the moment , from people such as Christina Pluhar, who in trying to bring baroque music to a wider audience think that because some baroque and pre-baroque music had little in written accompanyment, that perfomers were expected to be able to embelish the base etc (we are fine up untill now) a bit like 20th Century Jazz musicians did (we are still fine). BUT then she takes the leap of playing baroque and pre baroque music with all the inflections of 20th Century Jazz. NOooooooooooo. I'm sure it is done to try and find an audience, but jazz monteverdi will only alienate an audience. Vic might pop down to his local 'speak easy' on a thursday night to watch this sort of thing but NOOOooooooooo.
Thu, Nov 10 2011, 12:14PM
#5
RE: Baroque Music: Obsolete or Essential?
Yes it seems that this forum is mainly focused on the period 1800-80 and anything else gets scant consideration or is blown out of the water as derisory (I exaggerate, maybe).
Who can do without Pergolesi's Stabat Mater?
Marcello's oboe concerto is divine. Zelenka, Byrd, Biber, Teleman (yes his trio sonatas are very listenable), Quantz ......... there's so many - maybe too many but I would say nothing compares with the master J S Bach. If his Cantatas were all I could ever listen to again I'd be a happy man.
...and Berlusconi's opus 1 violin concertos, Crapitto's La Travestia, Morone's Concert Grosse.
Thu, Nov 10 2011, 3:52PM
#6
RE: Baroque Music: Obsolete or Essential?
Personally, I only came late to baroque music and this was to some extent due to the fact that anything I ever read on baroque music was on anything else than the music. Reviews and commentaries from baroque enthusiasts have since I started collecting music had a scope quite different to that relating to other artforms, to include modern music. They seem to be fixated on an academic discussion on the historical context, whether the music is complete, whether its performed in a certain way, according to a certain practice, on the 'correct' instruments, using singers that they deem appropriate. I think that this academic discussion which is at the forefront in musical circles alienates people. There is very little appetite for putting baroque music (and other 'classical' music) in a context which appeals to the modern listener. Commentators on poetry, literature, films etc don't seem fixated on making their topic museum pieces, quite the contrary, the tendency is to make it appealing to the modern (young!) listener. The academic discussion serves to alienate those who only listen with their ears (which is the vast majority of music lovers - or Garry Barlow wouldn't be such a successful composer).
Perhaps, some Handel operas contain music which is inferior and therefore merits to be cut. Perhaps not all ideas in Telemann's concertos is so interesting that the observation of its written repeat is merited. Perhaps Beecham sometimes made a valid musical point which eluded say, Harnoncourt. Perhaps, most people just like the sound of a modern violin.
I think that if baroque music was treated on the merits of its musical value, the popularity of baroque music would increase greatly.
Thu, Nov 10 2011, 5:04PM
#7
RE: Baroque Music: Obsolete or Essential?
I see from these first posts that this period of Classical Music is still alive, but not necessarily well. Certain reservations here and there, not always well articulated.
To start with the last and quite pertinent point of Hermastersvoice: It's not that much the "academic" approach that prevails nowadays, but the "historical" framework and perspective that, actually started in the early 60's, with scholars and great musicians of the likes of the Meister Gustav Leonhardt, the luminary Harnoncourt and his legendary Concentus Musicus Wien, Franz Bruggen and some more who followed. The "historical" performances gave a new impetus to this music, which, by regaining their originality, they became much more interesting, intriguing and exciting to the people who really love and appreciate Classical Music. At the same time, this trend showed the continuation and relationship of one period to another (Baroque, Galant, Rococo, Pre-Classical, etc.).
Despite the irrelevant and awkward humour of Troyen1, according to any respectable scholar, musician, conductor, music critic, etc., Baroque Music expanded the size, range and complexity of instrumental performance, while Opera was established as a musical genre and many musical terms and concepts from this era are still in use nowadays. The greatest invention in Music, as it is widely considered, is the Sonata form, which had been initiated at the late Baroque with C.P.E. Bach and was mastered in the early Classical period by Haydn.
Particularly, in the keyboard (harpsichord, clavichord, fortepiano, tangent piano, etc.) field, this era gave some of the greatest Masters of composition. D. Scarlatti is the source of any pianist to start, learn and develop his artistry. J.S.Bach needs no further comments, but his son C.P.E. Bach was one of the greatest composers of all times and a true master of the keyboard instruments. His publication, An Essay on the True Art of Playing Keyboard Instruments constitutes till today the definitive work on the technique of the instrument. Contrary to his father, he managed to exemplify the art of composing a whole work in difficult and rare tonalities, as A flat major, b minor, e flat minor, etc. That's, among other reasons, why Beethoven called him " the Great Bach" (he was not confused, Troyen. Not at all!).
That's for the moment, for some more food for thought.
Parla
Thu, Nov 10 2011, 5:57PM
#8
RE: Baroque Music: Obsolete or Essential?
I must admit that I fail to understand the question - surely all music, like most forms of art, is 'useless' in the sense that it has little practical purpose. In what sense can it be useful?
Thu, Nov 10 2011, 8:26PM
#9
RE: Baroque Music: Obsolete or Essential?
Baroque's a black and white world for me. I can get along fine with Handel, Vivaldi, Pergolesi, Purcell. But listening or watching Rameau, time flies by in lead boots and after 5 minutes of JS Bach I find myself agreeing with the man: Ich habe genug.
Thu, Nov 10 2011, 11:19PM
#10
RE: Baroque Music: Obsolete or Essential?
Craig, the question is not : useful or useless? It's about how Baroque Music can still be appealing, meaningful, exciting or it is forgotten, abandoned, neglected for any relevant reason.
So, if you wish to contribute to the debate, does this period of Classical Music make any sense to you?
Tagalie, I really and truly admire your bold statement on (J.S.) Bach. Ach so, Sie haben genug? Wunderbar! Die nexte Station ist der Tod. (This is the meaning of the Cantata in question, if you really agree with the old and great Meister. So, think it over. Maybe give a good shot to his sons, particularly C.P.E.).
Parla
Thu, Nov 10 2011, 11:37PM
#11
RE: Baroque Music: Obsolete or Essential?
Isn't a large part of the problem with baroque music that so much of it was written by composers in the service of this or that Count or Duke, or bashed out for next sunday's service. I occaissionally do try to sit and listen attentively but it's only really Bach who holds my interest - usually in his solo instrumental works (and certainly not performed on harpsichord!).
Having said that a friend recently played me a fab new Telemann disc called Barbaric Beauty which mixes in Polish and Hungarian folk music in between.
Thu, Nov 10 2011, 11:50PM
#12
RE: Baroque Music: Obsolete or Essential?
Your havin a bubble bath crotchet. Telemann mixed with Polish and Hungarian folk music - and you call this guy a friend. I watch my back around him if I were you.
Fri, Nov 11 2011, 12:36AM
#13
RE: Baroque Music: Obsolete or Essential?
Parla, it's with the obsessive interest with history which I think alienates most people. Take other classic artforms which are much more accepted among modern people - the art is judged on the merits of art itself. Shakespeare who, let's remind ourselves, is much older than many of the the composers mentioned, is discussed, performed, even sometime updated, but always judged on the merits of his writing. Shakespeare scholars don't seem to find it necessary to lambast a performance of say Hamlet just because it isn't performed in the manner it would have been performed in the Globe Theatre in Shakespears own time. They actually welcome and encourge new angles as long as the message is conveyed - it is 'shakespearean'. Similarly, Picasso's art is usually assessed in the context of today. No wonder that my young friends have views on poetry and Picasso but they are utterly unfamiliar with serious music.
Fri, Nov 11 2011, 12:39AM
#14
RE: Baroque Music: Obsolete or Essential?
Dr Brodsky reminds me more and more of Slavoj Zizek (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KvjGOncSyHM&feature=relatedin) in his wish to overturn the accepted viewpoint. I feel sure that the doctor is a bearded communist.
For my part I am astonished by the solipsistic viewpoint of so many people who post here. If they do not like something, then obviously it has no value. To my ears baroque and early music is far more interesting than anything that happened later, but that doesn't mean I think that the music of that time is better than any other kind.
Fri, Nov 11 2011, 1:44AM
#15
RE: Baroque Music: Obsolete or Essential?
Dr Brodsky reminds me more and more of Slavoj Zizek (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KvjGOncSyHM&feature=relatedin) in his wish to overturn the accepted viewpoint. I feel sure that the doctor is a bearded communist.
For my part I am astonished by the solipsistic viewpoint of so many people who post here. If they do not like something, then obviously it has no value. To my ears baroque and early music is far more interesting than anything that happened later, but that doesn't mean I think that the music of that time is better than any other kind.
What a pity you had to add a second paragraph.
You were doing so well and went and ruined it with a statement of such breathtaking sweep that it fair puts parla's comments in the shade and that is not meant as a compliment.
The Barock was no different from much music written since in that it was written to order. Think of all those nineteenth century operas.
It is just that the Barock scribblers seemed to think that the more you wrote the more you were rewarded. Perhaps they were.
Having said that I do like a lot of Vivaldi, prefer Gluck's operas to Mozart's and am happy with Boccherini in small doses.
Go on say it: he doesn't does he!?
Indeed I do. There is notespinning that you like and there is notespinning that I like.
What was the question! Oh yeah. Far from being obsolete I think we are continously pushing backwards the realms of music. We now look and listen to a far greater period of music than ever before. Music before Mozart has been gaining in popularity and interest at a vast rate since the period instrument revolution began. It may mean we reassess such composers as Telemann and find him wanting. However I have just ordered the new Telemann Nuria rial CD so I'll keep an open mind. (for once).