Baroque Music: Obsolete or Essential?
Fri, Nov 11 2011, 9:54AM
#2
RE: Baroque Music: Obsolete or Essential?
Thanks, Guillaume, for your very pertinent post.
I didn't focus on Beethoven's "worship" for Haendel, since the latter is, fortunately, a well known and established name in Classical Music. However, C.P.E. Bach, even if it's not at the level of the very top ones, it's essential listening!
Parla
Fri, Nov 11 2011, 11:31AM
#3
RE: Baroque Music: Obsolete or Essential?
C P E Bach, a one trick pony who made his Sturm und Drang period last all his composing life...... So Beethoven liked some of this tosh did he? He must have been tired and confused at the time.
Beethoven not only liked some of that tosh but practically worshipped it. He said of Handel: "He was the greatest composer who ever lived; I'd like to kneel at his grave". Far from being tired and confused (well he might have been a little bit tired, having recently finished the 9th Symphony) he had very good grounds for saying so, in the shape of Handel's oratorios - he couldn't have known much else by Handel, nor could he have known Bach's passions and cantatas.
As for C.P.E.Bach, I can't say he's a favourite of mine either but he wasn't best placed to be. He was one of those unfortunate pioneers who are quickly surpassed by their disciples. Haydn wouldn't have been Haydn, at least not as we know him, without C.P.E. Bach.
You are right, he was not, clearly, tired and confused but drunk.
Did he in also say that Hendla was his bestest fwiend in the hole wied werld and he luvved 'im like his bruvver?
Drunk.
Perhaps it was Handel who inspired him to write Wellington's Victory. A piece, I admit worthy of C P E Bach than Handel.
Fri, Nov 11 2011, 2:17PM
#4
RE: Baroque Music: Obsolete or Essential?
It's pity, Troyen. I'm sure you can get it, but you seem not to or, even worse, not willing to. And that wouldn't bother us, I guess, if you didn't so often try to "accommodate" your views as facts of Music, in any possible way. So, Beethoven the drunkard? Why not? It may make sense...The Fifth, in a new perspective, could easily be the product of bad wine, the third and fourth movements of the 8th likewise, the Variations in the "Kreutzer" Sonata sound like intoxication's outcome, etc.
Of course, he appreciated Mozart too, but who cares. Again, the alcohol...
Fortunately, there is solid "sober" evidence too for those who do not count too much on Bacchous influence.
Anyway, Baroque composers (and their music) unite us and they are the link with the rest of the Classical Music. There is no room for divisions or any kind of discrimination; on the contrary, we should celebrate the continuation, consistency and coherence in the course and development of this Music.
Parla
Fri, Nov 11 2011, 3:59PM
#5
RE: Baroque Music: Obsolete or Essential?
Beethoven's father was cetainly a drunkard, but Beethoven! He would have certainly seen the effect drink could have on people, but then he was an artist and would find the need for support, he certainly behaved like he had a hang over at times.
'There ain't no devil. it's just god when he's drunk' Tom Waits
Sat, Nov 12 2011, 12:42AM
#6
RE: Baroque Music: Obsolete or Essential?
It's pity, Troyen. I'm sure you can get it, but you seem not to or, even worse, not willing to. And that wouldn't bother us, I guess, if you didn't so often try to "accommodate" your views as facts of Music, in any possible way. So, Beethoven the drunkard? Why not? It may make sense...The Fifth, in a new perspective, could easily be the product of bad wine, the third and fourth movements of the 8th likewise, the Variations in the "Kreutzer" Sonata sound like intoxication's outcome, etc.
Of course, he appreciated Mozart too, but who cares. Again, the alcohol...
Fortunately, there is solid "sober" evidence too for those who do not count too much on Bacchous influence.
Anyway, Baroque composers (and their music) unite us and they are the link with the rest of the Classical Music. There is no room for divisions or any kind of discrimination; on the contrary, we should celebrate the continuation, consistency and coherence in the course and development of this Music.
Parla
It's you who "don't get it," never have so far and as likely never will.
That's why conversation with you is so wonderfully satisfying.
Incidentally, quoting eminent musicians to support your case cuts no ice with me.
I hear what I hear and what I hear I do not like. OK. QED.
Sat, Nov 12 2011, 12:25PM
#7
RE: Baroque Music: Obsolete or Essential?
It's quite obvious, Troyen. You get what you "hear" and if you "like" it...OK.
However, I (and not only) listen and appreciate, enjoy, even celebrate the outcome of the listening experience.
Anyway, don't bother; it will be always (for you) As You Like It.
I used to do that in my early years of "hearing" the Classical Music. By the time and through some good friends in this business, I found out that the most significant thing was all these revelations that may come up, when I thoroughly indulge in the unknown territories (for me) of the different periods, composers and works of Classical Music. Baroque Music, among other discoveries, came that way. In this way, I started appreciating also the works, composers, etc. I used to simply "like".
Parla
Sat, Nov 12 2011, 12:38PM
#8
RE: Baroque Music: Obsolete or Essential?
That's why conversation with you is so wonderfully satisfying.
That's one way of putting it!
Vic.
Sat, Nov 12 2011, 1:02PM
#9
RE: Baroque Music: Obsolete or Essential?
...and what's your way of "putting it", Vic?
By the way and most importantly, since you gave me the honour of visiting this thread, why don't you grant us your wise contribution on the subject itself. I'm sure it will be highly appreciated.
Parla
Sat, Nov 12 2011, 1:42PM
#10
RE: Baroque Music: Obsolete or Essential?
It's quite obvious, Troyen. You get what you "hear" and if you "like" it...OK.
However, I (and not only) listen and appreciate, enjoy, even celebrate the outcome of the listening experience.
Anyway, don't bother; it will be always (for you) As You Like It.
I used to do that in my early years of "hearing" the Classical Music. By the time and through some good friends in this business, I found out that the most significant thing was all these revelations that may come up, when I thoroughly indulge in the unknown territories (for me) of the different periods, composers and works of Classical Music. Baroque Music, among other discoveries, came that way. In this way, I started appreciating also the works, composers, etc. I used to simply "like".
Parla
You jump to so many conclusions based on faulty assumptions.
How do you know that I wasn't born with Barockery ringing in my ears, that I wasn't brought up without my daily dose of Barock?
You do not and, therefore, assume I know nothing about it and yet it may be my extensive and wide ranging knowledge of the era has led me to be thoroughly bored by it all. You do not know so stop being an insufferable snob(fat chance of that)!
Sat, Nov 12 2011, 3:59PM
#11
RE: Baroque Music: Obsolete or Essential?
...and what's your way of "putting it", Vic?
By the way and most importantly, since you gave me the honour of visiting this thread, why don't you grant us your wise contribution on the subject itself. I'm sure it will be highly appreciated.
Parla
Vic doesn't like points of view, they may differ from person to person and cause upset. Peace and love Vic, peace and love. .....is it 1970 yet!
Sat, Nov 12 2011, 6:05PM
#12
RE: Baroque Music: Obsolete or Essential?
My apologies, Troyen, but the way you present your statements may have led me to my "faulty assumptions".
Now, I can be very glad since you had such an "extensive and wide ranging knowledge of the era" which, eventually, have led you to boredom. How enlightening!
Parla
Mon, Nov 14 2011, 12:14AM
#13
RE: Baroque Music: Obsolete or Essential?
My apologies, Troyen, but the way you present your statements may have led me to my "faulty assumptions".
Now, I can be very glad since you had such an "extensive and wide ranging knowledge of the era" which, eventually, have led you to boredom. How enlightening!
Parla
Nothing of the kind.
Yet again I am requesting that you go back to my post and read it again.
Do not merely skim it and you will see that I said nothing of the kind.
You are jumping to conclusions again. Is this your default mode?
Mon, Nov 14 2011, 2:52PM
#14
RE: Baroque Music: Obsolete or Essential?
If you really cannot tell the music of Rebel from the other composers you mention I fear you may need an appointment with an audiologist, troyen1.
Mon, Nov 14 2011, 3:22PM
#15
RE: Baroque Music: Obsolete or Essential?
If you really cannot tell the music of Rebel from the other composers you mention I fear you may need an appointment with an audiologist, troyen1.
Where did you ever get the idea that I cannot tell the music from Rebel from any other composer? What's the difference, anyway?
Are you American?
C P E Bach, a one trick pony who made his Sturm und Drang period last all his composing life...... So Beethoven liked some of this tosh did he? He must have been tired and confused at the time.
Beethoven not only liked some of that tosh but practically worshipped it. He said of Handel: "He was the greatest composer who ever lived; I'd like to kneel at his grave". Far from being tired and confused (well he might have been a little bit tired, having recently finished the 9th Symphony) he had very good grounds for saying so, in the shape of Handel's oratorios - he couldn't have known much else by Handel, nor could he have known Bach's passions and cantatas.
As for C.P.E.Bach, I can't say he's a favourite of mine either but he wasn't best placed to be. He was one of those unfortunate pioneers who are quickly surpassed by their disciples. Haydn wouldn't have been Haydn, at least not as we know him, without C.P.E. Bach.