I just believe, before that, the work has its own musical value, that has to be recognised independently of the various views, opinions, reactions etc. of any kind of listeners.
How can musical values exist independently of the views, opinions or reactions of listeners? Unless you are arguing for it being divinely inspired, the concept is an illogical absurdity, isn't it?
I think Vic we have exhausted this subject not only with you, but with all these exchanges with fw and Mark.
Anyhow, to answer your question with another question: Do you think Beethoven (or any other great classical composer), when composing, had in mind any audience of the present or the future?
If you read any biography or ask any aspirant or accomplished composer, they will tell you that the composition is a very solitary work, where the composer has to achieve (or even surpass) specific goals in music-making, regardless of what the impact his work might have to any public or individual. Otherwise, we will never have, in the first place, a Ninth or a Fifth, a Hammerklavier or the Last String Quartets, etc.
In the case of Beethoven, he didn't care even about the limitations or views of his potential performers. There is an interesting story, when Beethoven had to present his first "Rasumovsky" String Quartet to the violinist Schuppantzich (first violin of the homonymous String Quartet, which performed most of his String Quartets). When Schuppantzich examined the part of the first violin, he dared to uttrer: "Master, the part of the first violin is almost unplayable". Then, the Master replied almost shouting: "Do you think that, when I composed my work, I had in mind your wretched fiddle"?
There is also the case of the unfortunate composer called Cesar Franck. He composed some of the greatest Organ music, second to none, The Violin Sonata (a constant ascent to the light, as one critic of his time has said), a glorious String Quartet, a magnificent Piano Quintet equal even to Brahms (both in f-minor), let alone his Piano Music. The public did not "get" his music. Does his music is less than Great, because of that, or do we, the amorphous, heterogenous public, have to indulge, reflect, attain and discover this music.
Bruckner is recognised by any authority (and not only) in music that he is a great composer, one of the very few greatest Symphonist and a magnificent orchestrator. However, his music doesn't ring a bell to many people (including me). Does this fact make his music less than it is, in musical terms? Rossini, on the other hand, is very popular, but his music is simply clever, almost cunning, with minimal signs of greatness, inventiveness or creativity. Shall we call him a great composer and his music "numero uno" along with any other great composer's work?
So, Vic, there is nothing "divine" and definitely nothing absurd in music-making (there might be something divine somewhere else, but this is not the matter here). It's the art of composition, which the musicians, professionals, fellow composers, experts have the authority to recognise and establish the "greatness" of the musical work, not the comprehensive value, which includes also the impact on the audience, individuals and the general public. That's why the almost totally forgotten Hummel, the underrated Czerny and the neglected Pleyel are great musicians and composers to follow in musical terms, even if you might find them irrelevant for your modern-driven life (compared to a nice song of P.S. with some meaningful lyrics, in english).
So, I hope we may agree that there is a process before and beyond what the listener brings to music. And this is the one I try to bring to the fore without any prejudice to the other.
It's the art of composition, which the musicians, professionals, fellow composers, experts have the authority to recognise and establish the "greatness" of the musical work
There we have it. It takes authority to recognise greatness. Authority!
A little gem of insight into your view of yourself in a mass of waffle and obfuscation, arguing against a supposed, as opposed to a stated position: that the definition of greatness is a subjective response to what is heard in music by the listener, and cannot be characterised objectively. Especially not by those with "modern-driven lives", obviously. Whatever has what Beethoven thought (and all the rest of it) got to do with it?
You really are a piece of work Parla! Desperately defending a position and value-system that you presume to be under attack when nothing of the kind is at issue. Our musical world is secure, not by a fortress mentality that sees a threat in every opinion that doesn't chime with yours, but by a mutual recognition of the power and beauty of what we are lucky enough to appreciate and love - in our own way. Do stop boxing with shadows!
I'm not boxing (I would be a very awkward boxer; I never touched or being touched by anybody) and, definitely, I don't see "shadows". Of course, I'm not dealing with a direct "threat" against Classical Music (fortunately in the new thriving markets as well as in some old traditional places Classical Music is respected and treated as in the good old times). However, I trace, in these forums, a certain deal of misconception and a sort of politicizing and streamlining different ideas along with political and social views that might become, on a medium or long term basis, a potential threat of the future and the role of Classsical Music in our modern-driven lives.
Anyway, if that's the way it is, let it be. In any case, Classical means old. In a brave new world, we may need adjustments. In any case, for the moment, I'm out of this new world, but not from the upcoming Year. So, once more Happy New Year and whatever will be...so be it.
As we say in Germany 'Beit'houven ist gott'
Naturlich! Das ist wahr! Aber wer glaubst das?
From the previous posts in this thread I can see that this is a delicate topic. However, it would be quite interesting to have a poll of the forum members as to their favourite classical musician.
Not too interested in the reasons for the preference as they are subjective but it would be interesting to see who came out on top.
is the highest goal, achievable when you have overcome all difficulties.
After one has played a vast quantity of notes and more notes, it is
simplicity that emerges as the crowning reward of art."
Is this the post Caballe were Dr Brodsky states Beethovens greatness is a FACT. I can't seem to find that claim anywhere. Are you gossiping again.