Beethoven is God.

Parla's posts may or may not represent his views on, and knowledge of, music, as opposed to some amorphous melange of friends' opinions, plagiarism from Wikipedia and who knows what other publications and, just maybe his own thoughts, however incoherent and impenetrably expressed they may be. Frankly, I couldn't care less and spending any time in debating with this now exposed charlatan is, for me, an utterly fruitless pursuit. I admire the patience of others like Vic and Andrew for doing so.

I can't be the only one who appreciates the delicious irony in the fact that Parla litters his impenetrable offerings with quotation marks, often employed seemingly at random, whereas when they really are required - at least of anyone with the slightest pretension to academic or intellectual self respect - when quoting and properly attributing other people's remarks (plagiarism in polite circles, stealing in some others) they are absent.

You are parla's slightly hipper brother, AICM £5.

(Gramo don't do smilies...)

It's really very simple - If you are moved by Winterreise then you are missing out BIG TIME if you never experience Nick Drake's Pink Moon. If you enjoy Erik Satie you really ought to hear Aphex Twin's Selected Ambient Music I & II. If you like Ride of the Valkerie check out Ride the Lightning by Metallica.

Vic, I'm quite healthy, considering that I'm not young anymore, and I'm totally free of any medication (except that I rely, on an almost daily base, on dealing and listening to Classical Music; that's my healing).

Bob, if you mean what you wrote, it's of your concern only and you have to be a bit... concerned. Suit yourself!

However, Partsong or dear Mark, as a fair and truly good interlocutor, you deserve one more round, since you went to a very detailed analysis of my post.

So, as you have experience with people, I have too, dealing with preparations of my concerts for people in places I have been, like in Asia or in Africa and back in the late 90s in US. They use to come, invited (no ticket involved), with the certainty they know everything about whatever has to be performed and they refused even to follow the program or to be attentive in the introduction of the works of the program. By all means, the music went over their heads, but they didn't refrain from making any comments of general -not personal- character, like that was great or boring piece of music, etc. Some people are very comfortable with what they know and they believe that's the whole truth in the world. I don't think they are arrogant people, but I truly came to the conclusion they don't care to learn a word more than they know.

Likewise, in concerts, the audience is made of different kind of people (educated, well prepared, musically experienced and the opposite variants). So, while they all get the same thrill of the "live" performance, i.e. the direct contact with the performer(s) and the experience of the direct listening to the specific work, the outcome of their understanding and final judgement, understandably, should vary. Hence, the reaction of Lutoslawsky to the particular listening of Brahms' Symphony (which has to do a lot with the actual performance and not necessarily only with the actual value of the work). I have attended some dozen of live performances of Beethoven's Fifth (a towering masterpiece of Music, in this case not even arguably) and, in some "poor" performances, I felt it was a sort of dreadful, awkward music.

Bruckner's Symphonies and Wagner's Operas are not superficially called "gargantuan" works; they are written in such a way, so that every note can count. So, the listener either he is able to get it or not. It's not the size that prevent the uneducated, unaware (and the rest); it's again the form that send them away or even out. I remember a case of listening the Prelude of Tristan and a fellow-musician, "unaware" of Wagner's music, turned to me and asked me: "When the work is going to start?", explaining that he couldn't trace which is the tonality and how the work unfolds.

So, on which grounds are you sure that the "average" listener (who actually falls in this generic term?) can comprehend the "usual" (which is not that usual anymore) programme of overture, concerto and Symphony? Are you really sure this "average" can get the full scope of "Leonora III", or of the Second Piano Concerto of Brahms or of Nielsen's Fourth?

Satie was not "naive"; his music was by choice! He believed, according to different sources of his time, that music should be as simple as possible to be followed from the first note to the last. According to the same sources, a critic told him, once, that his music was "naive". Satie replied: "Sometimes, truth is naive".

As for Jazz, we don't disagree. They are great musicians and as good as anybody, but they play only. Very rarely (Brubeck, Ellington and th great Schiffrin) they write down what they have played. That creates a problem of making this music..."tangible", in real terms. If I admire, appreciate and love the musicality of Coltrane's solo in "my favourite things", how can I find the score, so I can study, reproduce and make it accessible for the future musicians? The recording is not a score and, sooner or later, the master tape will get weaker and weaker, while CDs won't last for ever.

Regarding Pop/Rock, you did't answer what is their actual contribution in the course of Music. What is the legacy, not in sociological, political or economic terms, but purely in musical ones.

For' whatever's sake, don't ever compare "Life on Mars" with Pachelbel's canon. The latter exists in difffernt versions, most of them deprived of any lush string sonority. I  have it in Organ, chamber music and small string ensemble forms and you can always trace the beauty and magic flow of the original composition. That's why Pachlebel's canon is still in the repertory of various programs, while "Life on Mars"...

As for the Stamitz family, they are O.K., then, even if you "go for the big four musketeers". Yes, the Stamitz are for the classic audience mostly, but they were fine composers and musicians.

Many thanks for your post, Mark.

Parla

Oh God! I'm losing the will to live!

Parla Schmarla......

Looks like a desperate attempt to get the argument going again by positing false extremes.

Who doesn't believe that quality exists?

Who believes that everything is the same?

And throw in the word "political" as a pejorative to claim the high moral ground.

Surely this subject is exhausted?

Vic.

A wise policy, Craig. I think 'Pablo Largo' is his latest nom du jour, but I see that an earlier post from him today seems to have been removed.