Classical Music R.I.P.
Wed, Jul 25 2012, 1:47PM
#2
RE: Classical Music R.I.P.
Hi Mussessein - No apology necessary I think it's me that's caused the confusion. I meant I only know Penderecki symphonies 1-4!
John and Bliss - thanks for the tip. I've just put the Rubbra 6/8 and Soliloquy (I think that swung it for me Bliss) CD in my Amazon basket. I'll stick with that series as the only one I have so far is in that series 3/4. I once listened to 10 a few years ago John and I'm not quite sure I grasped it structurally (I think it was the Chandos Schonzeler but it was on vinyl in my local library). Anyway, you two have reminded me it's time to listen to Rubbra's middle symphonies - I gather 5 7 and 8 are highly thought of and John/Bliss you rate 6 and 9 John as well?
Mark
Funnily enough the recent discussion on most important living composer and post-1975 etc...has been making me think of going back to British 20th C again, (pre 1975) what with Britten and Brian and Rubbra et al...So much quality music!
Wed, Jul 25 2012, 2:59PM
#3
RE: Classical Music R.I.P.
I hope you enjoy the disc Mark. Yes, I would say the 9th is worth investigating: a big choral symphony on religious themes (Rubbra was a devout Catholic, as I'm sure you know). Less structurally tight than the symphonies in the middle of Rubbra's series, perhaps, but full of evocative and deeply felt things.
Wed, Jul 25 2012, 4:43PM
#4
RE: Classical Music R.I.P.
Regarding Alice's posting, I also (like some others here) enjoy Part's work, some Rautavaara that I've heard so far (like his Cantus Articus), Gorecki (probably, like many people did, I first heard of him through his third symphony--with Dawn Upshaw). Also, currently having fun exploring some Finnish composers like Sallinen whose works I been enjoying and finding 'accessible'. I was going to suggest Messiaen's Quartet for the End of Times as something to check out, but then remembered when it was written! I do think, though, that it is a stunning work which will be remembered by subsequent generations.
There's also one piece of music that I've heard by this contemporary composer which I've become rather fond of and is very 'listener friendly' and charming; it's called Blackberry Winter and is by Conni Ellisor. If you're interested take a look either here or on youTube.
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4469707
Best wishes,
Petra
p.s. I've heard of Lutoslawski before, but I don't know any of his works. Any suggestions as to where to begin?
Wed, Jul 25 2012, 6:11PM
#5
RE:
p.s. I've heard of Lutoslawski before, but I don't know any of his works. Any suggestions as to where to begin?
Try the Paganini Variations for piano & orchestra. There's an excellent (and well priced) version on Naxos coupled with the 3rd symphony.
Wed, Jul 25 2012, 8:31PM
#6
RE: Classical Music R.I.P.
Getting back to the Rubbra 6th, I failed to note that Boult is also slower in the "Canto" movement, 9.14 to Hickox's 8.26 and Del Mar's 8.11, but in the scherzo they are all just seconds apart. The only drawback to the Boult recording is the sound, but you get used to it. Turn down the treble a little.
Wed, Jul 25 2012, 10:41PM
#7
RE: Classical Music R.I.P.
Thanks John! (And Bliss). I'll give you some feedback when I have had a listen.
Petra - on Lutoslawski - I'd go with the Musique Funebre (1958) in memory of Bartok, and the Concerto for Orchestra (1954). These are his early 'big hits'!
After that, as Craig says I'd go with the 3rd Symphony (early 80's and a masterpiece) and Chain 2 from his 80's period. The 4th I once heard on the proms radio broadcast and there are some later works like Chantfleurs et Chantfables that I have yet to explore.
And I would add as I have said before that I wouldn't go with the Str. Quartet and Second Symphony, 64 and 67 respectively. These in my opinion are his densest works.
Enjoy! The Musique Funebre and 3rd symphonies are MUSTS!
Mark
Wed, Jul 25 2012, 10:56PM
#8
RE: Classical Music R.I.P.
Thanks Craig and Mark! I appreciate the suggestions. Rubbra, another one still to explore too! LOL Too much music! :-)
Best wishes,
Petra
Thu, Jul 26 2012, 9:59AM
#9
RE: Classical Music R.I.P.
Rubbra is like Holmboe. Yes he uses all the right notes but not necessarily in the right order. He uses the right manuscript paper and he has the right piano at home. He probably looks the part and says all the right things about music. BUT that is not enough to be a composer of interest, it will however probably be enough to get you a job at the BBC. After listening to Holmboe or Rubbra you have to say to yourself - 'What was the point of all that ?'
(answer - There wasn't any)
Thu, Jul 26 2012, 10:34AM
#10
RE: Classical Music R.I.P.
Alice, that reminds me of something I once experienced in an excellent independent record shop in Canterbury (now, alas, closed). The 'D' section was near the door and a French visitor, on his way out, looked down at some CDs, looked up at me (I happened to be standing close by), and fixed me in the eye. 'Delius,' he declared, all flared nostril. 'Execrable music.' (He said it in a gallic manner: 'ex-eh-cwa-ble'.)
Please say you think Delius is rubbish too - oh, go on!
Thu, Jul 26 2012, 12:20PM
#11
RE: Classical Music R.I.P.
Ummmmmmm, you do have to be choosey with Delius but he makes more sense than Holmboe and Rubbra. Delius has suffered from too much Beecham and needs a good clean, but I think he is at least worth a clean. Delius may be in the D section but Holmboe and Rubbra are in the F minus section.
Thu, Jul 26 2012, 6:15PM
#12
RE: Message for Naupilus; Lutoslawski's Armani Suit
Hi Naupilus. Something you once said on Lutoslawski has come to mind, when you said you thought his music was a bit well-tailored!
I'm kind of in agreement with you there actually (sorry Petra not trying to put you off as I do think he was a major figure). It's just that I have been having a look again at CB Rae's book since we mentioned him and the analyses he offers of some of my favourite works of his like the Musique Funebre and Third Symphony.
These two works as others also by him have very fastidious formal schemes; for example the Funeral Music first movement grows in 2, 3, 4, 6 and 8 part canons, and that is reversed in the last movement so the work ends as it began with a solo cello. Not wanting to bore people with the analyses, which aren't mine as I struggle with musical analysis, but just to give an example.
Dare I say it, his music is to use that awful Stalinesque term a bit formalist, and post-Webernian in its symmetries etc... Actually I do like formalist, like Lutoslawski and his fellow pianist in war-torn Warsaw Panufnik, because the advantage is very clearly structured pieces where it is possible to follow the formal schema, and not the kind of music that sounds like a chaotic 30 minute battle between a brass band falling downstairs and an out of tune string ensemble, with a hefty bank of percussion thrown in!
So I can see where you are coming from on that one.
To find modern composers who strike the right balance between formalism and freedom. A tricky one! Too much 20th C music has been one extreme or the another. Generalization I know...
Best of luck with finishing your Master's!
Mark
Thu, Jul 26 2012, 7:56PM
#13
RE: Message for Naupilus; Lutoslawski's Armani Suit
Hi Naupilus. Something you once said on Lutoslawski has come to mind, when you said you thought his music was a bit well-tailored!
I'm kind of in agreement with you there actually (sorry Petra not trying to put you off as I do think he was a major figure). It's just that I have been having a look again at CB Rae's book since we mentioned him and the analyses he offers of some of my favourite works of his like the Musique Funebre and Third Symphony.
These two works as others also by him have very fastidious formal schemes; for example the Funeral Music first movement grows in 2, 3, 4, 6 and 8 part canons, and that is reversed in the last movement so the work ends as it began with a solo cello. Not wanting to bore people with the analyses, which aren't mine as I struggle with musical analysis, but just to give an example.
Dare I say it, his music is to use that awful Stalinesque term a bit formalist, and post-Webernian in its symmetries etc... Actually I do like formalist, like Lutoslawski and his fellow pianist in war-torn Warsaw Panufnik, because the advantage is very clearly structured pieces where it is possible to follow the formal schema, and not the kind of music that sounds like a chaotic 30 minute battle between a brass band falling downstairs and an out of tune string ensemble, with a hefty bank of percussion thrown in!
So I can see where you are coming from on that one.
To find modern composers who strike the right balance between formalism and freedom. A tricky one! Too much 20th C music has been one extreme or the another. Generalization I know...
Best of luck with finishing your Master's!
Mark
Hi Mark.
Thank you for your interesting descriptions of Lutoslawski's music. Think I will see what's on youTube first then before diving in...not that you've "driven me off"! Plus I also just spent some of my music money today picking up some sale items (more about that elsewhere).
Your comment about something sounding like "a brass band falling downstairs" made me smile. It also reminded me of something that I listened to over my computer recently. It was from the first proms and was a new piece by Mark-Anthony Turnage. Perhaps I'm being a bit too harsh here, but I certainly didn't feel inspired to listen to it again!
Delius is nice, but it's not exactly the most memorable or intellectually stimulating of music...rather more atmostpheric for me anyway [Hope that I'm not sounding too critical here John G.?]. I did buy that recent Beecham boxed set on EMI (also a couple of other ones in that series too).
Best wishes,
Petra
Fri, Jul 27 2012, 1:06AM
#14
RE: Classical Music R.I.P.
You cannot get 'Beethoven or above' standard. That is like saying 'infinity plus one', it doesn't exist.
Alice, how much do you actually know of Beethoven's music? I ask because, despite your frequent advocacy of him, as far as I can recall, you've never mentioned a single one of his works. I presume "infinity" excludes any possibility of variation in quality but surely you must have some personal preferences? If so, what are they?
Fri, Jul 27 2012, 9:01AM
#15
RE: Classical Music R.I.P.
Alice, how much do you actually know of Beethoven's music? I ask because, despite your frequent advocacy of him, as far as I can recall, you've never mentioned a single one of his works. I presume "infinity" excludes any possibility of variation in quality but surely you must have some personal preferences? If so, what are they?
OK, if it will make you happy I'll mention one of his works. Symphony No1. Happy now. I'll also tell a work I like, Piano Sonata No 17. I'll tell you a work I'm not very keen on Fantasy for piano, chorus and orchestra. OK, do I pass the test and get a certificate.
Many thanks Bliss: I'll look out for the Intaglio disc.
For the record the Hickox timings are 9.19/8.26/5.48/9.36. Of course timings alone never tell the whole story; it's just that I felt Del Mar had a particularly cogent hold over the structure. I'd be fascinated to hear the Boult, given Boult's reputation for this same sort of thing.
John