Composers and their working methods
There have been some comments recently which have got me thinking about the whole process of composition again and how different composers approach it. Chris spoke about 'getting inside the music' and Parla said something about Beethoven's fifth (see below) on the most underrated thread, so I thought it might be interesting to discuss this topic of composers' preferred working methods.
The old saying is that Mozart had a kind of musical photographic memory for want of a better way of putting it, and wrote without the need for any corrections, while Beethoven on the other hand struggled over every bar. The story is apparently true that Mozart wrote down Allegri's Miserere from memory after hearing it (twice?). Amazing feat!
Parla made reference to Beethoven thus:
Do you think when Beethoven has finished his Fifth (after torturing efforts and hundreds of rejected sketches)...
While recently re-reading Testimony I came across this by Shostakovitch, who spoke very warmly indeed of Glazunov:
'Glazunov usually waited until the composition had formed in his mind and then wrote it down in a final draft. But he did allow for the possibility of corrections or new editions, and so on.Strangely, I agree with him about only writing a final draft, but not about corrections'. (page 56)
When I read that I thought crikey! Glazunov and Shostakovitch wrote the piece in their heads first, with the result that the first draft put down on paper was actually the final draft! Such mental self-discipline!
My guess it that it's probably as varied as there are fish in the sea, but I wondered if you contributors would care to share your favourite composers' working methods:
Piano reduction, short score, full score first?
Corrections, amendments, re-drafts?
Re-writes years later?
etc...
Regards everyone
Mark
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Thanks for your reply Chris. First one! I do appreciate that.
Your statements about Bruckner, in particular the one about him deciding the exact number of bars, are fascinating and raise the issue of planning or mapping out.
Apparently, one of Beethoven's friends was once astonished to see that he left whole sections in a work blank, in order to go back and fill those in later on!
Yes, you are absolutely right, it is difficult to find the necessary information, which is why I've posted it to see if you guys know any details...
The creative process is fascinating isn't it? One of the ideas I've come across with writers' sayings rather than composers, is the idea of the 'voyage of discovery' - you know, the exact opposite really of planning how many bars! In other words, a number of successful writers have said that they don't always know where the piece is going when they start writing it!
To plan or not to plan?
Mark
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Mark,
Thank you for starting this most interesting thread! I'm looking forward to reading more stories [Sorry that I don't have anything to contribute at this time].
Best wishes,
Petra
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Hi Petra!
No problem. Hopefully we'll get some interesting stuff!
The only thing I've found today is this from composer Alexander Goehr, quoted in Anthony Storr's book Music and the Mind:
'Alexander Goehr describes the early stages of embarking upon a new composition as intensely troubling, coloured with disappointment, frustration and inner rage. Then, when at last the notes begin to come,
the music writes itself...There is no longer a composer who pushes the material about, but only its servant, carrying out what the notes themselves imply. This is the exact experience I seek and which justifies all else. For me such experience exceeds all other satisfactions that I know or can imagine...For, at this moment, I find myself overcome by an oceanic sensation of oneness with all around me'.
The citation is The Independent, 1st June 1991.
Interesting!
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Despite there is an abundance of composing methods, depending on the limitations of the composer in question, the outcome justifies them or not.
Beethoven, either because he was so meticulous or perfectionist, he struggled with numerous sketches of almost every great work he composed, but he managed always to produce his towering masterpieces.
Mozart, Schubert and Bach, as great musicians themselves, could compose at extreme ease and speed, almost with little reflection or different sketches.
The good thing about the composition is the form that, practically, provides you the framework of what you have to write. So, if you choose to compose a Song (Lied, Chanson) in an ABA form, you, virtually have the picture of how many bars might be needed for the section A and how many for B. By all means, when completing the process, you can make the necessary additions, omissions, modifications, etc.
Bruckner, as a master of commanding the form, he should have been able to envisage from the outset how many bars needed for each movement of his Symphonies. For Mahler, things were a bit different, though.
Parla
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Great subject, Mark. This one has potential, as my brother-in-law said about his 4th wife-to-be.
Have you sampled any of the Sibelius early versions (violin concerto, 5th symphony) that were recorded on BIS? Obviously, Sibelius was a great exciser, cutting everything down to its barest minimum. I can think of a few composers who should have followed his example.
Rubbra, I believe, composed with orchestration already in mind. Many composers created at the piano. So many different methods.
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Thanks for that Tagalie as you've given me hope!
No I'm afraid I don't know the early Sibelius. I'll have a look into it.
Parla thanks too - any insights are welcome to me on this one!
Cheers all
Mark
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Shostakovich would compose at his desk with kids playing around him or the radio on in the background (He probably had the radio on too loud while writing his 7th symphony) noise around him didn't seem to bother him. He was once listening to a string quartet practising one of his works when one of the players said to him 'surely this note is a mistake', 'yes of course you are right' was his reply 'but play it as I have written it, I'll correct it in my next work.' Fantastic reply.
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Thanks Hugh. Now that is interesting, a composer (and a major one at that) who didn't bother about noise, who didn't need quiet.
And I agree. What a great reply!
Mark
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There is written evidence of Bruckner "mapping" his symphonies in the way stated above.
Apparently, after his death some of the pages that constituted the last movement of his ninth were taken by souvenir hunters. These papers have been tracked down giving muisicologists more material than they have ever had to enable them to reconstruct the last movement.
If Bruckner had lived a few weeks longer the symphony would have been completed but he was distracted by well meaning friends wanting him to rewrite his other works.
I believe that the rattle CD is available at least on pre-order.
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And an audacious reply by Beethoven (I have stated it before in another thread), when he presented his Rasumovsky Quartets to the violinist Ignaz Schuppanzich (first violin of the homonymous String Quartet, who introduced his String Quartets at the time). As Schuppanzich examined the score, he dared to complain politely to Beethoven that a specific passage was too difficult to perform. Then, the Master responded, in his vehement way: "Do you believe that I had in my mind your wretched fiddle, when the muse strikes me?"!
That's the reply of a great composer to the unsuspected performer.
Parla
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Troyen,
Thanks for the clarification about the evidence for Bruckner's working methods. I expect there will be more informatioin in the notes with the CD. And thank you for the information about that too. I found it and pre-ordered it! It said it will be released on 21 May.
I'm sure there will be more discussion on this when a few of us have heard it!
Chris A.Gnostic
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You have to love these socialist realism thumbnails of Shostakovitch at work, composing like a maniac with the radio blaring and the kids running round his feet (“Who put that bleedin’ balalaika crap on?”), taking time out only to run around Leningrad with his hose (“Any hotspots need attention there, missus?”) or dig trenches. Then there are the carefully-posed photos on the covers of Petrenko’s current symphony cycle, Shosti at the dacha in Bolshevo doing the 10th, Shosti working on the Eighth in a room without a stick of furniture except for his honky-tonk piano, chair and table, in shirtsleeves, door wide open regardless of -40 degree temperatures or clouds of mosquitoes. No state-funded flat in the city for him, no sirree.
It’s probably not the pen picture he would have preferred. It does remind us that, whether reading about the lives of artists or the way they created their art, we have to exercise some caution. Biographers, even if they’re not politically motivated, too often fall into the twin traps of hagiography or sensational exposé. Almost any creative artist will say that the creative act is 90% perspiration, 10% inspiration. But that doesn’t make for interesting reading.
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Rattle and the Berlin Philharmonic gave the US premiere of the completed Bruckner 9th at Carnegie Hall in February. There is a review of it in the May/June issue of American Record Guide (probably
of low circulation in the UK). The reviewer found the 4th movement "not entirely persuasive, ...unchararacteristically consonant and symmetrical with sweet resolutions reminiscent of early Wagner and extended sequences that call to mind second rate baroque concertos. ...This resolution seemed flabby (compared to the muscular first three movements)." She found Rattle's interpretation (of the whole symphony) quite overwhelming, ..."the reservations entirely owing to new material heard for the first time." She ends up by saying it remains to be seen whether this version will become the standard. The upcoming recording should bring out the critics in force.
Bliss
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I heard an interesting story about Rachmaninoff today whilst listening to a new CD [It was a live recording from the Hollywood Bowl of Rubenstein and Koussevitzky from 1949]. The radio announcer said [this was prefacing a performance of Rachmaninoff's PC No. 2] that Rachmaninoff wrote in his memoirs that he apparently was going through a rather prolonged period of "apathy" and decided to see a doctor about it. The doctor had him sit in a chair and whilst R. was half asleep this is what he repeated to him over and over:
"You will begin to write your concerto. You will work with great facility. The concerto will be of excellent quality."
According to Rachmaninoff's memoirs, this worked quite well and the creative juices started flowing again (Sorry, I didn't have the time to jot down all that the commentator said here); so well, in fact, that he dedicated his PC No. 2 to this doctor!
Best wishes,
Petra
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This could be a really interesting thread Mark, though it's not so easy to find the necessary background information. One composer that comes to mind for the difficulties of establishing just what he meant is Bruckner. The argument over Haas or Novak (not to mention the other editors) is only the tip of the iceberg.
I was reading somewhere Simon Rattle talking about the reconstruction of the last movement of the unfinished 9th symphony that he is about to give with the Berlin Philharmonic. An extraordinary statement he made was that Bruckner decided the exact number of bars for a movement even before he had committed a note to paper. What evidence there is for this statement I don't know, but it has consequences for the Haas/Novak debate, specially for the 8th.
Speaking of the 8th, does anyone know who publishes a pocket or study score of the Haas edition? I have the Eulenberg (Novak) but would like to have the Haas too. Dover were going to publish Haas but in the end did not.
PS: Since I first posted this I see that the performance by Rattle has already taken place and the Cds will soon be available.
Chris A.Gnostic