Composers and their working methods

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partsong
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RE: Composers and their working methods

 Dmitri Shostakovich -- July 20, 1942Comrad Tagalie:We at the Interior Ministry of Culture have noted with concern your latest post, however, in view of your hitherto unblemished record, we are prepared to overlook this lapse of judgement on your part...Comrad Hugh:We have become increasingly concerned of late about your understanding of liberal sentiments. There is a view that you have become...somewhat too understanding of such ideology.We currently have a 'vacancy' for a party worker of sound body and mind...er...in the Gulag. We suggest that you 'apply' for this post. If you wish to do so, please make yourself known to the two gentlemen currently standing at the corner of your street in raincoats and hats...

tagalie
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RE: Composers and their working methods

You can't kid me, Mark, that's Jeremy Irons.

c hris johnson
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RE: Composers and their working methods

 

Re: Bruckner Symphony No.9

I found this review of the performing edition of the ‘completed’ Bruckner 9th, and of Rattle’s performance.

It came from Ken Ward, Editor, The Bruckner Journal, on 11th February 2012

“It [the Adagio] was certainly not the end of the symphony for Bruckner. He finished his work on the Adagio in November 1894, fell sick with pleurisy, but recovered quickly, and in May 1895 set to work on the Finale and was reportedly still working on it on the day he died. Although the symphony remained unfinished, at least two thirds of the movement was done, possibly more. The editorial team, Samale, Phillips, Cohrs and Mazzuca (all of whom appeared on stage for the first time together at Tuesday’s performance) have made it their generous ambition to let us hear what Bruckner wrote in the context of a completed movement. It has taken over 20 years for it to achieve its present form, which now has convinced Sir Simon Rattle and the Berlin Philharmonic that its quality merits performance with the preceding three movements. The repute of conductor and orchestra cannot do other than give added legitimacy to a project that many have claimed is not only impossible, but also unnecessary.

“Such criticism was swept aside by these concerts. The finale was performed with total conviction, its three themes characterised strongly. The second theme is a pale, enervated variation on the jagged lightning-bolts of the first theme, and Rattle communicated its melancholy progress very movingly. A blazing brass chorale above frenetic triplet-infested string accompaniment constitutes the third theme, and this is the sort of powerful, visionary music at which the Berlin Philharmonic excels. The double-dotted rhythm of the first two themes obsessively dominates much of the movement. Rattle ensured the rhythmic attack remained taut, and nowhere more so than in the wild fugue at the first theme’s recapitulation, whereupon Bruckner introduces a new assertive and heroic theme on horns, with a triplet at its core: once again, the Berlin Philharmonic horns showed the sort of stuff they are made of. This theme returns after the second and third theme recapitulations – and shortly after, but for a few sketches, we reach the end of the manuscripts that have survived.

“Discussion of how long the coda needs to be, what exactly should be its constituents, could – and probably will – go on endlessly. Whatever it was to be probably went to the grave with Bruckner; what is provided here has the limited but nevertheless ambitious function of providing an effective performing version. In this it succeeds wonderfully: the first movement main theme, anticipated in that heroic horn theme and stamping triplets that are almost the last of Bruckner’s notes, makes a return; an inversion of the finale main theme begins the crescendo into the coda (as sketched by Bruckner), there follows a dissonant grinding combination of all main themes of the movements, and then a breakthrough into D major, with the glorious rising trumpet theme from the Adagio at last coming into its own, reiterated thrice on three trumpets, and the movement ends in a blaze of fanfares. Rattle stood motionless, his arms aloft, the orchestra suddenly frozen. It seemed forever, but slowly he let his arms fall and the hall broke into stormy applause; many were on their feet.”

I’m really looking forward to hearing the CD. For anyone who is very impatient and has a good enough broadband connection, I see that it can be heard now via the Berlin Philharmonic Digital Concert Hall.

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RE: Composers and their working methods

Bruckner's working process is an an interesting case study......even a simple cymbals strike (at 7th's adagio) can arise doubts....is it logical or distracting?

Interesting remarks about Rachmaninov. It seems that the bad reception his first symphony had throwed him down: a serious depression that his shrink worked hard to bring him back:" ...forget symphonies for a while, what about writting a piano concerto?"

Shostakovich's supposed "careless" writting pays off: you normally have a piece that flows easily before your senses.....it's not truncated by revisions ...but this is only possible to the gifted ones!

Nobody mentioned yet but it seems that Brahms' working method was very unique. Self-critical to the limit, the creation of his first symphony took him more than two decades. Besides, his severe self-criticism, some say, made him discard about half of his output.

Regarding Bruckner's complete 9th by Rattle, it's a very interesting project and I'm looking forward (Mahler's 10th in mind) to listening to his recording. However there's no avoiding the fact that the final of the adagio - after that violent tutti - as usually performed is already quite a bye-bye isn't it?

 

 

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RE: Composers and their working methods

I'm also very skeptical about this well advertised 4th movement of Bruckner's Ninth. I don't think it can sound as genuine Bruckner and my fear is that it can be something like a sort of "poor relative" to the other 3 full of superlatives movements. 

Besides, having lived for years in Berlin and having had enough "live" listening experience of Rattle and the BPO as it has been developed under his baton (a gloriously flat sound and superbly homogenised performances), I have serious doubts about the real potential of this recording.

Anyway, we'll see.

Parla

c hris johnson
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RE: Composers and their working methods

78rpm and Parla:

Well, we'll have to wait and see but from the account I posted above it is clear that Bruckner left little if anything for the coda of the work.  That's a big problem.  On the other hand much of the rest of the movement was written out or sketched.

The other problem highlighted by Parla is about the whole approach of Rattle and 'his' Berlin Philharmonic to Bruckner.  I've never thought of Rattle as a Brucknerian. His 'micro-management' style seems wrong to me for Bruckner. But we don't have much choice and he does relish a challenge like this. I'm certainly curious to hear it and, unlike you 78rpm, I've never felt that the end of the Adagio feels like the end of the symphony (unlike Schubert's 8th).  Anyway, we'll undoubtedly discuss this more when we've heard it!

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troyen1
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RE: Composers and their working methods

Stop speculating and go out and get it!

That is my intention and I have only recently acquired EMI's other recent Bruckner 9 issue on SACD (and bl...y good it is, too!).

Rattle's, is it, notorious (?), attention to detail that some see as micromanaging may reveal other parts of the score.

c hris johnson
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RE: Composers and their working methods

Hi Mark, Troyen, Parla, Petra and everyone else!

I just found this on the web.  It's a full account by those responsible for the Bruckner reconstruction Rattle performs.  It includes all the sources and describes exactly what they had at their disposal, and what they did with the material.

You can find it at:

http://www.abruckner.com/Data/articles/articlesEnglish/

cohrsB9finale/BG_Cohrs_Introduction_SPCM2012.pdf

It makes interesting reading

 

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troyen1
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RE: Composers and their working methods

It tells me I am forbidden and me a dedicated Brucknerian, too!

c hris johnson
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RE: Composers and their working methods

 

re; Link to Bruckner 9 reconstruction:

Sorry Troyen.

Try going this way:

http://www.abruckner.com/articles/articlesEnglish/cohrsB9finale/

Then click on the download.

I did it this way, and it still works today.

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troyen1
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RE: Composers and their working methods

c hris johnson wrote:

 

re; Link to Bruckner 9 reconstruction:

Sorry Troyen.

Try going this way:

http://www.abruckner.com/articles/articlesEnglish/cohrsB9finale/

Then click on the download.

I did it this way, and it still works today.

Ha, ha, it works!

Many thanks.

c hris johnson
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RE: Composers and their working methods

Great!  Glad it worked.

Plenty of homework there in advance of the CD arriving. Unfortunately, it usually takes 10-14 days for these CDs to arrive here from Amazon, so I'll be the last to hear it of you all!

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troyen1
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RE: Composers and their working methods

c hris johnson wrote:

Great!  Glad it worked.

Plenty of homework there in advance of the CD arriving. Unfortunately, it usually takes 10-14 days for these CDs to arrive here from Amazon, so I'll be the last to hear it of you all!

No you won't, unless the Beeb play it and I can record it, as I have no intention of buying any CDs this month...and yet there are so many tempting morsels out there i.e. Hyperion's Romantic Piano Concertos latest.

c hris johnson
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RE: Composers and their working methods

Hi Troyen.  There have been many months when I have intended to buy no more CDs, but somehow.......

But the article is interesting, isn't it?

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troyen1
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c hris johnson wrote:

Hi Troyen.  There have been many months when I have intended to buy no more CDs, but somehow.......

But the article is interesting, isn't it?

From what I have read, so far, yes...but I struggle reading long documents on a PC screen and will print it off.