Composers and their working methods

82 replies [Last post]
partsong
partsong's picture
Offline
Joined: 23rd Aug 2010
Posts: 541
RE: Composers and their working methods

Thanks to all for your fascinating comments on Bruckner. It is well worth looking at the suggestions above in more detail.

I'm afraid I've not been having much success over the last few days in trying to collect this kind of information on composers' working methods.

Whichever search phrase I google, such as 'Composers' working methods' or 'Methods of composition' or 'How do composers compose?' all I'm getting back is the usual 'You TOO can be a hack-writer! Master the secrets of composition
in THREE easy stages for just $49.95!

The information is probably out there in biographical and autobiographical works/essays etc...

Anyway, at least I've given myself a little on-going topic to research. As and when I find any more, I'll post it up.

Maybe there's a Professor of Composition out there reading this board who can tell us a few bits and pieces?

Once again, thanks to everyone so far.

Mark

c hris johnson
c hris johnson's picture
Offline
Joined: 8th Sep 2010
Posts: 568
RE: Composers and their working methods

BRUCKNER SYMPHONY No.9 - COMPLETION

Well, the Rattle recording of the four movement version of Bruckner’s 9th Symphony is now upon us.  I’ve had my copy for a few days now and have listened right through three times: and very impressive it is. These are my first thoughts.

First, the easy things: the recording is superb, full bodied, perfect balance between brass woodwind and the all-important but often submerged strings. The very important timpani too are balanced well forward. A very wide dynamic range ideally requires a largish listening room (luckily I have one!). The orchestral playing is of wonderful quality too, and there is no sign of any tentative playing in the ‘new’ music of the finale.

Rattle’s interpretation is on the fast side, quite flexible in tempo (less so than Schuricht, of recent discussion).  The first movement is powerful, the scherzo massive, as it should be, the adagio rather more restless than sometimes.  Rattle underplays the valedictory aspects of this movement emphasised by some performers: as a result the feeling that that should be the end of the symphony is reduced. Presumably that was his reasoning.

And the finale. It’s difficult to resist, at least on the first hearing, trying to work out which parts are not ‘echt’ Bruckner, and doing this gets in the way of just listening to the music. I marked a few points which seemed as though they might not be original, but was chastened to find on checking with the list given in the booklet (and expanded fully in a reference I gave above) that all of them were genuine Bruckner passages, either fully scored or sketched! After that I just concentrated on the music, and really tremendous it is. The coda, which did have to be composed for the performing version, sounded really like Bruckner to me, though of course had he lived it would have been different.

__________________

Chris A.Gnostic

parla
parla's picture
Offline
Joined: 6th Aug 2011
Posts: 1815
RE: Composers and their working methods

While I'm very reluctant with this kind of new "discoveries", after your stirring post, Chris, I think I will succumb and I'll go ahead for it.

Thanks for your detailed comments.

Parla

troyen1
troyen1's picture
Offline
Joined: 9th Oct 2010
Posts: 716
RE: Composers and their working methods

That's whet my appetite even more.

Your review is similar to others I have heard or read, particularly the way Rattle approaches the third movement and his avoidance of giving the impression this is the end as so many have done in the past.

partsong
partsong's picture
Offline
Joined: 23rd Aug 2010
Posts: 541
RE: Composers and their working methods

Hi Chris. Your comments have prompted me to listen this afternoon to HVK and the Berlin Philharmonic's recording from 1966 on DG Galleria. I'm not sure what to expect now in terms of a 4th movement, as it seems kind-of-complete, with the two monumental outer movements  (24'00 and 25'25 respectively) and the brilliant scherzo (10'05), which in this version is delightfully playful and deeply sombre both at once. That pounding is great stuff!

(Bit of surface hiss on this digitally remastered version).

Anyway, I look forward to comparing it with this completed Rattle version...

Mark

partsong
partsong's picture
Offline
Joined: 23rd Aug 2010
Posts: 541
RE: Composers and their working methods

 

Well here's one working method to avoid: suffer from spiritual crises, dipsomania, delirium tremens and leave most of your major projects unfinished at your untimely death shortly after your 42nd birthday.

Rimsky-Korsakov said of Mussorgsky: 'so talented, original, full of so much that was new and vital', yet revealed in his manuscripts 'technical clumsiness, absurd, disconnected harmony, ugly part-writing, sometimes strikingly illogical modulation, sometimes a depressing lack of it, unsuccessful scoring of the orchestral things....Publication without some setting in order by a skilled hand would have had no sense, apart from a biographical-historical one'. (Gerald Abraham in the book 'The New Grove: Russian Masters 1 Glinka Borodin Balakirev Mussorgsky and Tchaikovsky' and published by Papermac).

In the case of the Bare Mountain music, Rimsky-Korsakov entirely dismissed the original 1867 version and wrote what was essentially a new piece based on Mussorgsky's materials. He finished and orchestrated Khovanshchina, and in 1896 produced his own new version of Boris Godunov complete with 'drastic cuts, wholesale rewriting and complete rescoring of the surviving text, insertion of a certain amount of new music' (his own of course) and changing the order of the last two scenes. (The quotation is from Abraham again).

The list of people who added to Sorochintsky Fair has to be read to be believed. Not Rimsky on this occasion.

However, a happy ending; from 1908 on some unease was felt with with the RK versions, and a campaign ensued to re-instate Mussorgsky's originals as it were. In 1928 the Russian State Music Publishing Corporation began a complete and collected edition of the composer's originals, with the result that Mussorgsky's 1869 version of Boris Godunov is staged at Sadler's Wells in 1935.

The talk about Bruckner, Elgar, Mahler reconstructions has got me thinking about John's point re: the ethics in this case of Rimsky-Korsakov's professorial dismissal of some of Mussorgsky's quirks. Personally I find the bold changes of harmony in Pictures (piano version) absolutely brilliant.

I'm not sure which is more shocking; Mussorgsky's self-defeating alcoholism or the way his scores were re-written and assembled by others who considered themselves worthy and capable of somehow ordering the disconnected and erratic, almost lunatic, ramblings of the composer with his insatiable craving for alcohol. If you wish to re-write someone else's work, at least show some sympathy and understanding!

A great talent and a truly tragic figure: the CD of his choruses I have by Abbado is truly stirring and inspiring stuff. Apart from many songs and some piano works and of course Boris Godunov, what he completed is a sadly small corpus of music. 

Mark

PS Apparently he left the openings to two movements from a projected Symphony in D. Now that would have been something, a symphony by Mussorgsky!

 

parla
parla's picture
Offline
Joined: 6th Aug 2011
Posts: 1815
RE: Composers and their working methods

Mussorgsky was an exception, Mark. We should not capitalize too much on his unfortunate case.

Parla

partsong
partsong's picture
Offline
Joined: 23rd Aug 2010
Posts: 541
RE: Composers and their working methods

 

Yes Parla. I was deliberately choosing the worst example I could think of!

I am certainly not against re-construction, and the debate on the Bruckner 9, both on its own thread and on this one has been fascinating. The ethical issue is when something stops being re-construction and becomes a new composition by a different hand. You can just imagine Rimsky-Korsakov sitting in his study, red pen in hand, tutt-tutting as he crossed out some of Mussorgsky's 'errant' harmonic progressions.

Ironically, the success of Boris Godunov being staged at the Maryinsky theatre in February 1874 seems to have had an adverse effect on Mussorgsky's condition. In his book on Pictures At An Exhibition, Michael Russ quotes this letter by Stasov (lifelong friend of Mussorgsky and dedicatee of Pictures) to his daughter from March of that year:

'he has completely changed. He has begun to drink more and more, his face has swollen and turned dark red, his eyes have gone bad, and he hangs out at the Mary Yaroslavets almost all day, where that damed carousing crowd gathers. So many efforts have been made to drag him out of there and join with all of us again-nothing helps. And besides, he has become somehow petty and pusillanimous'.

Although there are apparently one or two other voices from the time who think Stasov may have been exaggerating a little...still it is possibly another insight into Mussorgsky's troubled state even when successful.

Mark

PS In a letter to Stasov from June 1874 the composer, at work on Pictures, said; '...sounds and ideas have been hanging in the air; I am devouring them and stuffing myself - I barely have time to scribble them on paper'. (Michael Russ' book cited above). In other words, his working method during the composition of this piece was to shovel food down himself in an effort to keep himself off the alcohol!

PPS As regards his actual process of composition, apparently Mussorgsky composed at the piano in advance of writing out the manuscript. He worked it out at the piano beforehand. Interesting.

c hris johnson
c hris johnson's picture
Offline
Joined: 8th Sep 2010
Posts: 568
RE: Composers and their working methods

It is interesting how views of Boris Godunov have changed even in the time I have known it.  The version recorded (twice) with Boris Christoff in the title role was Rimsky's version (with cuts).  That was more or less what you also heard at Covent Garden, the Bolshoi (and I think at the Met?).  Christoff's recordings also were modified further because he incorporated all (or most) of Chaliapin's modifications of the role.  It was quite a surprise to hear the Karajan Salzburg Festival performances with Ghiuarov (some years before the Decca recording), still in the R-K version but Chaliapin-free!  Hearing the (so-called) original version with Pollish forces under Semkow (with Talvela) was a surprise indeed, perhaps one I wasn't ready for at the time!

Now no-one performs R-K's version.  The original also excluded the Polish Act. It was always said that Mussorgsky added this to meet the demands of the Theatre for 'feminine' interest - though I notice that the (anonymous) author of the Wikipedia article on the opera seems to feel that this may have been only a pretext for refusing the opera. Anyone know anything more about this?

Nowadays Mussorgsky's spare and unusual harmonic style seems so much more interesting than those who thought they knew better (including Shostakovich). The same goes for the piano original of Pictures at an Exhibition (a splendid subject for the Pictorial in Music discussion).

Some discussion in another thread has just made me think of a parallel with Stravinsky, whose early ballets were very much influenced by Rimsky-Lorsakov's style of orchestration - and who later turned more Mussorgkian on his way to becoming anything and everything modern!

Chris

__________________

Chris A.Gnostic

partsong
partsong's picture
Offline
Joined: 23rd Aug 2010
Posts: 541
RE: Composers and their working methods

Small world Chris! Thanks for that by the way. You are obviously a big fan of Boris! My recording of Boris Godunov is the 1962 one on HMV Concert Classics vinyl with Christoff playing three roles - Boris, Pimen and Varlamm! Strictly speaking this album is the 'highlights', and goes from the coronation scene to Boris' death.

This one is RK's version by the way.

The CD of Abbado I referred to above is a 1980 recording on RCA Victor Gold Seal and includes The Chorus of Priestesses from Salammbo, the Chorus of People in the temple from Oedipus in Athens, The Destruction of Sennacherib poem by Byron (choral work), the original version of Night on Bald Mountain and the early Scherzo in B flat from 1858 (also Mussorgsky's original). Other tracks include the prelude and Galitsin's journey from Khovanshchina. Six of the nine pieces including those last two are orchestrated by RK. Wonderful CD.

Mark 

partsong
partsong's picture
Offline
Joined: 23rd Aug 2010
Posts: 541
RE: Composers and their working methods

Just a couple of snippets on Lutoslawski from Mr. Rae's book:

Apparently his First Symphony took a long time to complete, six years, from 1941-47. As part of the work he composed a number of short contrapuntal studies mostly for winds, including 9 canons for three clarinets, 10 canons for two clarinets and 10 interludes for oboe and bassoon, as well as 21 canons in 4 parts with no instruments specified.

I think the studies allowed him to play around with melodic ideas, and Mr. Rae notes that no 10 of the canons for two clarinets 'bears a striking resemblance to the parodied march theme in the slow movement of the First Symphony'. (The author later goes on to explain that this parody march theme played by solo oboe is a bit Prokofiev-like).

Anyway I found this an interesting insight - he obviously experimented with a number of ideas in miniature as it were as background work for his first symphony. I wonder if other composers have done the same kind of thing?

This piece by the way is well-worth a listen; I have it on Wergo coupled with the 2nd (which is much less accessible, the least so of his symphonies in my opinion). If you like Prokofiev/Stravinsky it is in that kind of mould.

The other snippet is fascinating where the composer said about listening to Cage's Concert for Piano and Orchestra, 'Composers often do not hear the music that is being played...we are listening to something and at the same time creating something else'.

Is that what is called creative listening?!

Mark

partsong
partsong's picture
Offline
Joined: 23rd Aug 2010
Posts: 541
RE: A snippet from Tippett (ooh! poetry):

The following is from an interview with Meirion Bowen in the booklet which accompanies the boxed vinyl set of the 4 symphonies issued by Decca in 1984:

What is the most difficult stage for you in the composition of a symphony?

'The opening, always. A lot of premeditation and planning - sometimes lasting years - will go into the notion of the work as a whole and of its structure, before I come to write the notes. But then beginning the piece, that's a real test: it can take me hours, maybe a whole week. The Third Symphony, for instance, took seven years of intermittent consideration and eventual creation. Until I eventually sat at the piano to compose, the work was simply ideas in my head, scattered jottings and mnemonics simply recording my notions of what possibilities might be explored in the work. Some of these were to be discarded, others kept. The original, spontaneous conception of 'immobile' polarized against 'speedy' music was always the main structuring factor. By the time I reached the piano, it had a structure and balance, the proportions were known. Working at the piano, I didn't find the precise sounds on the instrument, so much as through it. I can invent as though the orchestral score were in my head all the time -  and indeed I write straight onto full score, always have done. It's a search for the right sounds...The opening of a piece is always a problem'.

An interesting one. It is as if he had a structural template in his head, hence the searching for the right sounds. Also another composer who could take years on a large-scale work, and once again the importance of exploring at the piano.

This has some affinities with Shostakovitch and Glazunov composing the whole piece in their heads first, and with Bruckner's mapping out, and with Rubbra and others composing at the piano. Not exactly in Tippett's case working the piece out at the piano, but as it was an orchestral piece using the piano to find the right sounds...

parla
parla's picture
Offline
Joined: 6th Aug 2011
Posts: 1815
RE: Composers and their working methods

It seems to me that, eventually, composers act like God: they compose in mysterious ways and much worse: their final product quite often goes beyond their original plan or vision. That's why some of the believers may find God in their works.

Parla

VicJayL
VicJayL's picture
Offline
Joined: 16th Aug 2010
Posts: 762
RE: Composers and their working methods

parla wrote:

It seems to me that, eventually, composers act like God: they compose in mysterious ways and much worse: their final product quite often goes beyond their original plan or vision. That's why some of the believers may find God in their works.

Parla

A reasonable attempt to inject some controversy into the depopulated blandness you have helped to create Parla, but I think the god delusion has had sufficient airing here, don't you?

Vic.

Uber Alice
Uber Alice's picture
Offline
Joined: 29th Mar 2012
Posts: 223
RE: Composers and their working methods

VicJayL wrote:

A reasonable attempt to inject some controversy into the depopulated blandness you have helped to create Parla, but I think the god delusion has had sufficient airing here, don't you?

Vic.

No Vic, it's just called debate. You either join in with a 'point of view' or you stay away. If anyone posts for the sake of an arguement it is you. When Vaughan Williams commented on his 4th symphony that he didn't know whether he liked it but it was what he meant, was he implying that the work had taken over to some extent, that he had merely been a conduit for what he had been compelled to write. 'God' for some maybe, not for Janacek, he made that plainly clear in his comments after his mass. I wonder who takes over you when you decide to write Vic.