Composers and their working methods
Tue, Jul 31 2012, 7:35PM
#2
RE: Composers and their working methods
Hmmm...interesting. I hadn't even thought of 'God' in the equation before now. I suppose though that at some point, one of us may come across a composer who mentions 'God' in the creative process.
Anthony Storr (1920-2001) in the book I referred to above called Music and the Mind, mentions a fascinating phenomenon known as the oceanic experience. Apparently the term was coined by Romain Rolland in a letter to Freud after the latter attacked religion. Rolland claimed that religious feelings stemmed from 'a sensation of eternity, a feeling as of something limitless, unbounded - as it were oceanic'.
Storr argues that this state of mind is 'usually compared with the states of mind described by the mystics in which the subject feels at one with the world and with him or her self'.
And in his book Solitude, which is an absolutely brilliant study of how certain eminent artists kind of 'cut out' and go into the great solitary emptiness to create, he refers to descriptions of this experience by Wordsworth, Whitman, Gosse, Rowse, Koestler and CS Lewis among others.
Needless to say Freud saw the oceanic experience as a return to blissful union with the mother.
Anyway, the interesting thing is that there is apparently a state of mind which certain artists experience, of something 'beyond' normal realms...'God' or 'Not God'.
(Anthony Storr by the way wrote some brilliant books on the creative mind: The Dynamics of Creation, Solitude and Music and the Mind are the ones I know and he is well-worth dipping into. I would heartily recommend Solitude).
Mark
Tue, Jul 31 2012, 4:41PM
#3
RE: Composers and their working methods
Vic, my post expressed my genuine views on the matter.
After our previous exhaustive exchanges on this question, I don't doubt that for a moment, of course.
.... For me and the "believers", there is no controversy or delusion
about the relation of God/Classical Music.
Putting controversy aside for the moment, delusion is a possibility for either of us, isn't it?
However, at another
level, I'm glad you took the bait and you responded.
So, given our history on this question, provocation was your intention then, (and you don't think it's had sufficient airing?)
I thought you've
vanished in the thin air, without any sign...
What prompted the thought Parla? That I had been called unto the bosom of Abraham? Or Don Giovanni's fate, perhaps?
Vic.
Tue, Jul 31 2012, 7:31PM
#4
RE: Composers and their working methods
Having said that composers may find God in the act of composing, or feel that God inspires them, or find some kind of mystical or other experience in the process...
Parla, I am a bit disappointed when you admit that your view that composers act like God was meant as bait for some contributors.
(And I'm not quite clear if your last sentence on believers finding God in music was meant to indicate composers or listeners, so I think that needs clarifying).
After a few weeks off this thread I have managed to find recently some good stuff on Mussorgsky, Lutosalwski and Tippett. Parla please don't kerbosh this thread by taking it from how composers compose to the art of composition proves the existence of God. I will scream if that happens, because other people like Tagalie and Chris have indicated that they also find this topic of interest...
The recent thread by Arbutus on Most Important Living Composer has held together without the usual jibing at each other.
Obviously this topic broadly speaking is on aesthetics for want of a better word, and some argument/disagreement on aesthetics is a matter of course on a forum like this, and can be quite welcome.
If it's on topic Parla and not re-hashing an old argument.
Uber - thanks for the interesting comment on VW above.
Mark
Tue, Jul 31 2012, 10:59PM
#5
RE: Composers and their working methods
What prompted the thought Parla? That I had been called unto the bosom of Abraham? Or Don Giovanni's fate, perhaps?
Vic.
Well you do tend to disappear up your own backside from time to time Vic.
Wed, Aug 1 2012, 12:37AM
#6
RE: Composers and their working methods
Vic, I'm very glad you didn't doubt for a moment the genuine of my view.
"Delusion" is not an option when faith is involved: either you believe or not.
"Provocation" was the face value of my intention. Actually, I was interested if you still are around and, secretly, follow all the posts in every thread. By the way, I'm glad you somehow refer to the "bosom of Abraham" (I have never done it) and you might have considered yourself brilliantly naughty, so that you may deserve the fate of Don Giovanni. Actually, none of the above options crossed my mind and I am genuinely happy you are perfectly fine and, as usually, in good form.
On the serious note of the argument, based on the findings of Mark and what I have witnessed with (minor of course) modern composers, arrangers etc. during their creative process, it is almost evident to me that there is no control of their vision, let alone the outcome. It starts as something A to end up as AB. What happens in between is a mystery that even the creators cannot comprehend.
So, Mark, the "believers" can be both the composers and listeners. Some declared "atheist" composers might never "see" any intervention beyond them, but listeners do and vice versa. By the way, there is no proof of the existence of God through the "art of composition". It's what the believers might trace in the process and the outcome.
As for the "aesthetics for want of a better world", I would love to have some clarification(s).
Parla
Wed, Aug 1 2012, 8:27AM
#7
RE: Composers and their working methods
"Provocation" was the face value of my intention.
Well, congratulations, it worked - as no doubt you knew it would!
Actually, I was interested if you
still are around and, secretly, follow all the posts in every thread ... and I am genuinely happy you
are perfectly fine and, as usually, in good form.
Yes I am, and yes I do, and thank you.
By
the way, I'm glad you somehow refer to the "bosom of Abraham" (I have
never done it) and you might have considered yourself brilliantly
naughty, so that you may deserve the fate of Don Giovanni.
Sorry, Parla, you have lost me there.
But to the point (and what you wanted to provoke):
"Delusion" is not an option when faith is involved: either you believe or not.
... and what I have
witnessed with (minor of course) modern composers, arrangers etc. during
their creative process .... What happens in between is a mystery that even the
creators cannot comprehend.
...there is no proof of the existence of God through the
"art of composition". It's what the believers might trace in the
process and the outcome.
Of course "delusion is not an option when faith is involved", that's a definition of it. But just look at the damage done when people act with the certainty of
being right despite evidence, despite reason, despite consequences for
those who don't share that certainty.
"Mystery that you cannot comprehend", "what the believer might trace in the process and the outcome", these are subject to delusion. The aesthetic, which Mark correctly identifies as the proper focus here, is not, is it?
Vic.
Wed, Aug 1 2012, 8:48AM
#8
RE: Composers and their working methods
Are your hands clasped together in prayer Vic. Which character from the bible would you be, was there one called Pointless Pious who washed his hands.
Wed, Aug 1 2012, 10:56AM
#9
RE: Composers and their working methods
Thanks Vic, for the understanding of my actual intention(s). (The points with "Abraham" and "Don Giovanni" leave them aside. They were some kind of concealed jokes from my side).
As for the points you raised:
Faith does not need, by definition, "evidence" or "reason". They are in the object of your faith. "Damages and consequences" for those who don't share that certainty work the other way round as well. (The certainty of the "atheist/non-believers" is also detrimental to the other side).
The "Mystery that you cannot comprehend" and the "what the believer might trace in the process and the outcome" may be "subject to delusion", when they can be proven that they actually are. Till then, the believer cannot deny he sees something there...The "aesthetic" is the actual mystery here. I hope Mark can give us his view (or even vision) on that matter.
Parla
Wed, Aug 1 2012, 12:49PM
#10
RE: Composers and their working methods
Till then, the believer cannot deny he sees something there...The "aesthetic" is the actual mystery here.
I fail to see why the aesthetic should be seen as mysterious. An inability to put into words what we find beautiful or meaningful in art shouldn't automatically suggest supernatural origins - though rationally, of course, it doesn't preclude it.
Faith does not need, by definition, "evidence" or "reason". They are in the object of
your faith.
Not sure what the "they" refers to here, unless you mean, "Evidence and reason are the object of your faith"? In which case, this is a contradiction in terms, surely?
"Damages and consequences" for those who don't share that
certainty work the other way round as well. (The certainty of the
"atheist/non-believers" is also detrimental to the other side).
If you are claiming a moral equivalence here, just what is the point of a faith position?
The
"Mystery that you cannot comprehend" and the "what the believer might
trace in the process and the outcome" may be "subject to delusion", when
they can be proven that they actually are.
Forgive me for finding amusing the fact that you turn logic on its head in an attempt to defend the principle that what you claim is beyond logic. "Mystery and outcomes may be subject to delusion when you can prove they are subject to delusion"? It's not a meaningful position to claim truth until your opponent can prove a negative! Come on Parla, you can do better than that!
Vic.
Wed, Aug 1 2012, 1:24PM
#11
RE: Distance Learning Module 365 on Compositional Methods
What we should be debating on this thread is not Parla whether we as individuals (you,me, Vic and others) find God in the act of composition, but whether composers do. Obvious point, but actually quite subtle, because Parla that is what is happening and aside from the fact that it has been debated to exhaustion before, there isn't really a need for you to argue that case.
So far I haven't yet found a statement by a composer to that effect, (that God is somehow involved in the process) but I am reasonably sure that there must be some. If that is the view of a composer when we find it, we can respect that view whether we believe or not. It will be one perception among others. It may even take a large percentage, but it won't be every composer's view.
I couldn't attempt a definition of aesthetics here Parla, as it's apparently a big subject. Broadly speaking aesthetics is to do with the creation and appreciation of art isn't it? So I don't think we need to get into semantics and what JKH has rightly called 'epistemological byways' in a previous debate. I am not particularly bothered whether this is aesthetics or what; 'the methodologies of composition' might be a better department for it.
And I might be a believer but I respect that Vic is a secularist (hope you don't mind that word Vic!).
Wed, Aug 1 2012, 3:12PM
#12
RE: Composers and their working methods
Vic, I never suggested that the "inability to put into words...automatically suggest supernatural origins. However, I'm happy..."it cannot be precluded".
The "they" refers to evidence and reason, but what I said is that "evidence and reason are in the not the object of your faith".
I'm not claiming any moral equivalence; I just want to say that, if there is any damage may be done, it can work both ways. We all (believers or atheists) have feelings to hurt.
I will be more than happy, one day, somebody may articulate what I find as mystery (in the process or the outcome of a musical composition) that it was a delusion, but, till then, allow me to call it a "mystery" beyond rational explanation.
Mark, thanks for admitting that a "definition of aesthetics is a big subject". That means, anything relevant to this matter is subject to various and different interpretations, including the supernatural or the inexplicable. By the way, composers might not explicitly admit the intervention beyond them, but they express, in different ways, their various "feelings" about the final outcome and the incredible (sometimes) journey in the compositional process. It's quite interesting how the "creators", the composers themselves, look at their own compositions and act almost as the mere listeners: they love or hate or admire or have misgivings about their own works and, sometimes, make remarks on them like outsiders.
Finally, I also respect the fact that Vic is a non-believer or "secularist" (based on the life we lead, I guess we are all secularists). That's why I debate with him (as he put it once, we are friends in contention).
Sat, Aug 4 2012, 2:31AM
#13
RE: Composers and their working methods
Of course "delusion is not an option when faith is involved", that's a definition of it. But just look at the damage done when people act with the certainty of
being right despite evidence, despite reason, despite consequences for
those who don't share that certainty.
being right despite evidence, despite reason, despite consequences for
those who don't share that certainty.
Vic, I agree entirely. Few would disagree, and especially those with much knowledge of 20th-century history, in particular the first half of it. In that period incredibly destructive wars were launched with all the certainty you refer to. But that certainty was not religious but political - as always, or most of the time. Religion has certainly played its nefarious part in the history of warfare but not a very major one.
Sat, Aug 4 2012, 8:19AM
#14
RE: Composers and their working methods
But just look at the damage done when people act with the certainty of
being right despite evidence, despite reason, despite consequences for
those who don't share that certainty
Vic.
It sounds just like the BBC on one of their liberal multicultural crusades. Educating the masses to their world view.
Sat, Aug 4 2012, 9:18AM
#15
RE: Composers and their working methods
Religion has certainly played its nefarious part in the history of warfare but not a very major one.
Guillaume, if this were true historically, and I'm not sure it is, what about conflict today? How many conflicts are motivated by religious differences?
On the moral equivalence question, it seems a pretty weak defence to argue that, yes religions cause conflict but then so does politics when the former claims to be divinely inspired, claims morality as its very basis and motivation.
That wonderful quotation from Oliver Cromwell seems to me to be the only protection we can have to the fanaticism of certainty, whether it's an absolutism justifying terrorism, or couched in the dulcet tones of trendy Anglican moderation: "I beseech you in the bowels of Christ, consider it possible you may be mistaken".
It guides the democratic principle, it is the very basis of scientific enquiry and the search for truth, it enhances respect for others. Only religions make a virtue of disregarding it. To quote Parla: "Delusion is not an option when faith is involved."
Vic.
Vic, my post expressed my genuine views on the matter. For me and the "believers", there is no controversy or delusion about the relation of God/Classical Music.
However, at another level, I'm glad you took the bait and you responded. I thought you've vanished in the thin air, without any sign...
Best regards,
Parla