You are not judging music, Parla, you are judging people
Judging people is very important. You wouldn't want any old fool being part of the panel that placed music in order of importance. You do really have to judge the judges, they won't complain about being judged anyway as they are judges themselves. Far too many people don't even know what time of day it is to allow them to judge something as important as music. Right, I'm off for breakfast.
You know what I mean, Brodsky, my friend.
Anyway, what does it matter what "any old fool" places on his list of musical importance?
There's room for all opinion and we weigh it for ourselves. Look how tolerant we are of you, for instance.
Hi Chris! Et al...
Thanks for those two very thorough posts Chris. I haven't forgotten you - just been busy this afternoon. (9 page job application form. Yawn).
I shall have a ponder...I think I might have lost the thread! Ha-ha! Oh dear. My fault then for moving it!
PS I am also still pondering deeply on some of the great spiritual mysteries revealed in last night's concert by The Sixteen. Who was she? Her, the blonde in the black dress who gave me the unsmiley smile. I ain't got a clue who she was! Did she in fact know who I was?
Look God 'snot fair. I went to pay my respects and hear a joyful noise. I didn't expect ghosts. In a church as well.
PPS Uber Alice - isn't after 6pm a bit late for breakfast? Mind you there is the great English culinary tradition of the all-day breakfast!
There's room for all opinion and we weigh it for ourselves
A very liberal approach Vic but this is not the Eurovision Song Contest, we don't place any weight on the thoughts of minor celebraties. What is great and what is not great is decided by the informed, not by the general public and not by a phone in poll (and certainly not by a gramophone readers hall of fame vote). We really need to get away from this 'everyone is equal' nonsense that you continually spout. We educate ourselves to better ourselves. Those who choose the gutter are the gutter.
Having still few hours before I leave, I had a last glimpse at the arena and I see it keeps the morale and some sort of entertainment.
Vic, I think your nemesis under differfent names (you see what virtual reality can do) says all the things I or Chris or anybody else can say, in his unique way.
In the long hours of my journey, I have plenty of other serious issues to think about (you see, there is also real life; the objective reality). My views on Music have been long ago consolidated. You see, I have studied music. You may have to consider how subjectivity affects the value of a Classical Music work. To give you another clue: Try to figure out when and who made the first and decisive judgement. It's critical to further understand why there is no room for further or any subjectivity, at least as for the musical value.
The definition of Music above (from Chambers) helps a lot, even if it's not perfect or totally complete.
Thanks for the good wishes,
Yes, there's not much to choose between the three of you in terms of logical discourse. It says a lot for your levels of perception however, that you cannot see through Brodsky's cynical iconoclasm. Do you think he intends "Those who choose the gutter, are the gutter" as a contribution to this debate? I remember posts of his attacking you in the vilest terms and having to be moderated off. Now you claim him as an ally. You're welcome.
To give you another clue: Try to figure out when and who made
the first and decisive judgement. It's critical to further understand
why there is no room for further or any subjectivity, at least as for
the musical value.
Your argument is based on the claim that all judgment is redundant: classical music is great independent of any judgment of it, by anyone at any time, and no opinion has any validity that does not support that view.
The evidence you claim that proves it - variously, the score, the rules, the choice of form - are themselves not subject to opinion, they are fact. This is confirmed by professional musicians and scholars whose judgments are themselves above criticism.
The little problem of "greatness" being a product of mind not of nature, of being conferred not having existence exterior to human perception, might, just might, to an open mind, give pause for thought.
I agree that the Chambers definition is not perfect, but it's a perfectly good starting point. It was:
- Music : The Art of making sounds in a rhythmically organised, harmonious form, either sung or produced with instruments, usually communicating some ideas or emotions
You suggested before that this doesn't (or shouldn't) include the works of Snoop Dog or the various entries in the Eurovision Song Contest. It strikes me that they fit the defintion perfectly - why do you think it doesn't?
We are not interested in 'Art' or 'Music', we are interested in 'Great' art and 'Great' music. The works of Snoop doggy dog and the Eurovision song contest may be 'Music' but strong cider mixed with white wine is also 'Drink' and Pot Noodle is also 'Food'. Unless you live in the 'gutter' would you seriously eat them. We consume fine music, the greatest music, but we don't do it because it is 'music', we do it because it is GREAT.
I think you'll find that Calvin Cordozar Broadus Jr changed his name from Snoop Doggy Dogg from Snoop Dogg in 1998.
Do try and keep up.
....strong cider mixed with white wine is also 'Drink' .....
It's always good to see someone with direct personal experience contributing to a discussion.
Mark wrote: "I am also still pondering deeply on some of the great spiritual mysteries revealed in last night's concert by The Sixteen. Who was she? Her, the blonde in the black dress who gave me the unsmiley smile. I ain't got a clue who she was! Did she in fact know who I was?
Look God 'snot fair. I went to pay my respects and hear a joyful noise. I didn't expect ghosts. In a church as well."
Perhaps she was the Holy Ghost.
Let he who is without gin cast the first stone.
...and the less subjective our view.
A clear example of how you miss the point in this whole debate Chris.
"Our view" of music can be subjective or objective. Of course it can.
The debate is about music being great or otherwise irrespective of "our view", isn' it?
In all you have written I can see no evidence that you understand the difference between these two aspects.
Convince us that you can.
C ris johnson wrote:
Perhaps she was the Holy Ghost.
Yes, perhaps that's the answer! Why didn't I think of that? Revelation! We don't attribute greatness: it's revealed to us. This is a transcendental matter: we don't need evidence and logic: we need faith!
It's as convincing an explanation as anything else you and Parla have come up with anyway.
Re; Holy Ghost
Nice one Chris!
Having reached the definite conclusion that I don't know her, she might well have been. Or maybe just one of those unsmiley smiley people...
Chris you said:
'What I’m suggesting is that the greatness of the work as perceived by the listener is an additive, or even more than additive compound of the work and the performance, and the subjective part is predominantly to be found in the latter'.
I can see where you're coming from on that, but I still think that we make subjective judgements all the time about the works themselves. Otherwise I would have no preferences, and I do as I'm sure we all do. I prefer Beethoven, Haydn and Schubert to Mozart (not in any order).
Whether the emotional impact is written into the score is an interesting one. It might be, but it is made more complex, because are the emotions that we feel as listeners the same as each other, and how do we know that the emotions we feel are those intended by the composer? Which is not to rule out that a composer may well be emotionally moved by something - a poem say - in order to set it to music.
Mark, the fact that you have preferences doesn't change at all the actual (if not objective) value of Beethoven, Mozart, Haydn or Schubert.
The emotional impact cannot be "written" into the score, since the score was composed first and, the whatever "impact" followed and has been developed generations and generations after. Maybe, we might say the emotional features or aspects are hidden in the score (in any case, the score is only music notation. There is no room for anything else to be depicted there).