Bollocks, was my original reply - before I realised that I could expand on that.
That's started my day off with a guffaw. Thanks!
[.... Name them! And in naming them, omit evaluation-qualifiers like "better", "more sophisticated", etc., all of which will be subjective....
There's a 'v' missing in that sentence, Vic.
Guillaume, don't give up, there's more to this site than two obsessive mas-debaters ( Parla and me).
"Post Reply", bottom left after selecting "Quote" will get you an empty text box.
Sorry, that should be "instead of selecting "quote"" of course.
Yes, an apt metaphor in the circumstances. Hey ho!
Vic, "This question is so important" to me, because I love, respect and I'm deeply dedicated to Classical Music, while you simply...enjoy it or maybe a part of it.
Music and Classical Music in particular should never become "a pleasurable means to a measurable end".
Well, there's a fair amount of presumption wrapped up in some of that. But leaving that aside, how is your love, respect and dedication to classical music affected by trying to prove that "greatness" is an objective criteria when applied to it? It's not a trick question. I am genuinely curious about it.
Is it not a natural human state to feel protective and passionate in protecting the things you love, only a liberal android would feel otherwise. We will not be assimilated victor, resistance is strength.
"When Beethoven finished his Fifth, which we know tortured him a lot till he found its final form, after enormous efforts and numerous rejected sketches, did he know that his composition was the one he could approve as the best possible outcome?" If the obvious answer is "yes", can this be translated to the simplistic : Beethoven's Fifth is great, because Beethoven compose it? In a way, it is true. However, this question/answer shows who and when made the critical judgement for the work we are faced with.
Beethoven's fifth is great because Beethoven composed itBeethoven's fifth is great because Beethoven decided it was great himself
That's how it reads to me Parla!
You are claiming an objectivity (like the earth's orbit around to sun) to a concept of mind whose purpose is the attachment of value.
Well put Vic! I don't think you can see it Parla.Therein lies the problem. You see the works as somehow intinsically great, regardless of human opinion. Therefore you can't agree with what I would say are some of the points that have been established:
Greatness is humanly attributed (Vic, Craig and others)Whether we attribute greatness depends to a large extent on the skill of the composer (Tagalie)
Mind you Parla you have now admitted that there are degrees of greatness and therefore that not all composers are equally great.
Parla - 'Good fences make good neighbours' (Robert Frost) (I know Vic you probably won't agree with me on that one!)
"You [Parla] see the works as somehow intinsically great, regardless of human opinion.
"Greatness is humanly attributed (Vic, Craig and others)"Whether we attribute greatness depends to a large extent on the skill of the composer (Tagalie)"
What is the disagreement here. All of these things contribute to the notion of greatness. Each of us may place them in different order of importance.
Interesting point Chris, but the disagreement is that Parla steadfastly argues that mine, your, our opinions don't matter because they don't affect the greatness of the work...
Parla refuses to recognize the human factor...
Inferior humans do not matter one jot.
Mark, As I undserstand it Parla considers that the importance of our opinions matters to the extent that we are well-informed. ??
Exactly Chris! What kind of opinion/judgement/evaluation I can provide that can add or deduct anything from Bach, Haydn, Mozart or Beethoven's opus?
Besides, to what extent any listener's views have all these centuries affected the musical value of the Classical works, beyond their popularity?
Who is able to judge op.111 by Beethoven unless he/she is able to follow closely every single step of the composition process and to comprehend the final quite complex outcome? Has anyone of us reached Beethoven's level to be able to judge him and his work?
Indeed! But we might pergaps be willing to agree that great musicians who have devoted their lives to the music of Beethoven have opinions/judgements/evaluations that carry some weight (say, Klemperer, Toscanini, Furtwangler, Abbado in the symphonies: in Op.111 Schnabel, Kempff, Barenboim). Rather less, those of us who are mere listeners, but even here those who have probed into the music thoroughly somewhat more than those for whom it is just 'nice' music?
Oh, fer chrissakes, do you never engage brain before posting?
This is such utter tosh, the sort of stuff one might say if one was drunk in convivial company and forget about almost immediately.
Did Beethoven keep a diary: " Terday, start on, what will become, my opus 111. Wrote a few notes on manuscript and played them. Can't hear a note, of course, but because I'm a genius (and don't you know it, LOL) I know that it is absolutely right. What will they say about me in years to come: That this man was immortal!"
Right Parla, that is IT!
Conductors' batons at dawn, behind the cathedral.