Covermount CD Discontinuance
Sat, Oct 9 2010, 12:24AM
#2
RE: Covermount CD Discontinuance
To me it's very simple. I have been reading Gramophone for more than forty years and the covermount CD was a brilliantly simple innovation( though 'Classic CD' did it first) allowing the reader to sample and assess the full quality of the CD you might eventually buy. I was an early adopter, owning the original Philips CD100 player in 1983, and over the years the Gramophone CDs have inspired scores of purchases. There was instant portability, but more importantly you could play it on your main music system. Now we are offered a method of listening through a computer at 256 kbps, which even the magazine's own Audio Editor, in a timely article on P137, assesses as worse than MP3 in the amount of data being "ditched", offering "a small fraction of the data on the original disc." Any assessment of the technical quality of the disc I might buy will be inevitably compomised and that's assuming I will make that assessment on my main music system. My laptop normally lives in the study upstairs. My high quality system is downstairs. Yes, I can utilise my wireless link, take the laptop downstairs, and following the Audio Editor's advice I can link the 3.5mm headphone jack output to a preamp line input. I can then listen to the streaming, but at the cost of a low-level background hum with the laptop on battery power and a totally destructive mains-induced audio interference when the laptop power adaptor is plugged in. That's before any restrictions on bandwidth, interruptions for buffering and all the other delights of the internet in a rural area. As for portability - forget it. Now guess how often I will be inspired to use the website to listen seriously to Gramophone offerings, however extended they may be. So you see how simple it is. I trusted and valued the CD but I have very little use for the web audio. I will probably still subscribe to the magazine for the sprinkling of interesting articles, but other mags have interesting articles too. Nowadays I find I concentrate my purchases on re-issued LPs from specialist publishers, more expensive than CDs or SACDs ( yes, I've got them too) but on balance increasingly more rewarding both as artefacts and musical experiences. They're simple and brilliant. How strange that Gramophone never mentions them.On the other hand, maybe it's not.
Sat, Oct 9 2010, 7:48AM
#3
RE: Covermount CD Discontinuance
In the grand scheme of things, how important is the loss of a throw-away sampler disc that takes 70 minutes to listen to, once a month? To read some of these comments you would think we are losing rare masterpieces, being deprived of an artistic and aural rarity without the possibility of getting the same (but in fact much extended) information elsewhere, albeit with a smidgen of compromise in sound quality or listening convenience.
Is life really the poorer for losing the convenience of listening to a bit of information in the car, for goodness' sake? These objections would have more credibility if we were discussing the loss of a top quality rare recording.
If the loss of a bit of plastic undermines the enjoyment of a very informative magazine and provokes such ire and frustration there are alternatives on the market.
Can I suggest a more satisfying source of such emotion is Victoria's "Lamentations of Jeremiah" - Tallis Scholars better than The Sixteen, perhaps.
The Gramophone Player is a great enhancement to the usefulness and pleasure of the magazine in my opinion. A handful of negative comments here are surely not representative of the readership as a whole.
Cheer up guys!
Sat, Oct 9 2010, 9:35AM
#4
RE: Covermount CD Discontinuance
Now we are offered a method of listening through a computer at 256 kbps, which even the magazine's own Audio Editor, in a timely article on P137, assesses as worse than MP3 in the amount of data being "ditched", offering "a small fraction of the data on the original disc.".
No, you misquote me. The Gramophone Player at 256kbps isn't worse than MP3: it is MP3.
What I actually said was: '“Lossy compression”, as it is commonly known, works by throwing away some of the data used to record the music, based on well-known psychoacoustic principles. The lower the bitrate, the more gets thrown away. CD Audio runs at about 1.4Mbps, so for example to get down to even high-resolution MP3 files, at 320kbps, clearly quite a lot needs to be ditched; when you get down to 192kbps or even 128kbps, you’re only using a small fraction of the data on the original disc.'
Within the limitations of the bandwidth available for the Gramophone Player, I think the 256kbps bitrate is a sensible compromise for what is after all a sampler service, and not intended as an alternative to buying or downloading the music.
As John Duncan has mentioned above, we are open to suggestions as to how the sound quality may be improved within the limits of bandwidth and compatibility of the player as it stands; only yesterday we were discussing the possibility of conducting some tests with alternative codecs which would still fit the system we have.
However I fear there will be no snap decisions made, nor quick fixes applied, given the huge workload imposed on our small but ridiculously industrious web development team across a wide range of titles.
Sat, Oct 9 2010, 11:01AM
#5
RE: CD Discontinuance
Hi James,
Thank you for your reply. I still don't see what the benefit is though to end user and I can't seem to get an answer from anyone as to this.
Can I ask you what you feel is the benefit of the player over the CD for your readership?
Obviously I understand the ability to increase the quantity on offer, but what else is there that benefits the reader/listener?
Regards,
Austin
Sat, Oct 9 2010, 11:25AM
#6
RE: Covermount CD Discontinuance
Hi Vic,
I can't claim credit for the quote you mention, another poster (Amadeus?) was responsible for that one :)
I completely agree with you on using the highest quality bitrate and would have stood shoulder to shoulder with you on that issue.
As you state, we are talking about a sampler and it probably doesn't need to as high a quality. But in that case, why don't we take it to the lowest common denominator? Why don't we do an amazon and give 30 second snippets at a tiny fraction of the "true" bitrate? That would save bandwidth.
I also think that with the cd sampler, people were able to evaluate better in a more natural enviroment. Thats putting aside the people who can't actually figure out how to use it.
I don't think it is as nearly as convinient, as you state. The importance of that is the debating point. As you rightly point out, if the number of people complaining on this forum is compared to the number of "hits/uses", then it is indeed small.
I think thats comparing apples and oranges though! Compare it to the total readership instead. What you had, would have been somewhere around 100% of people who got the magazine with the CD listening to the CD. What is the % now? I would imagine it has dropped, if we can get an accurate figure on individual users vs hits.
I want ask what the gains are for you, as an end user in comparison to the CD? It is not to disagree or make fun of your viewpoint, I am genuinely interested in how you feel it is an improvement in your music listening.
OMG! I think we should take the "FM is obsolete", "CD is obsolete" etc to another post - that one can run and run :) All I will say is that at many of the high-end hi-fi shows, their has been a surprising return to open-reel tapes over the past year or two. Maybe it won't be too long before I am yet again taping the charts on a sunday afternoon........
I think this decision has upset a lot of readers, because they will be unable to listen to the sampler in the way they choose. Part of the reason I subscribed for my mum in the first place was because of the CD and how it would improve the experience for her. Now, she has lost that. She isn't techie enough to use the player which renders a big portion of what I payed for in my subscription for her redundant!
Actually, can I have a refund ;)
That is why this is a passionate discussion in my mind.
You didn't offend my, only irritated slightly :) Glad to have the discussion anyway.
Now, about that FM switch off date........
Regards
Aus
Sat, Oct 9 2010, 11:26AM
#7
RE: CD Discontinuance
Can I ask you what you feel is the benefit of the player over the CD for your readership?
I'm not James, but among the benefits are the opportunity to provide more content, both in the number of tracks and the length of excerpts, and the ability to serve media in other formats, such as the Awards videos currently on the player.
It's also worth noting that many on these forums have in the past suggested that they felt the cover CD to be a waste of resources, both human and natural.
Sat, Oct 9 2010, 11:35AM
#8
Covermount CD Discontinuance
On a side note I am deeply suspicious of any organisation's IT Department since their aim always seems to be (and this is borne out by long experience in various areas) not to provide what the end consumer actually wants, but to demonstrate how clever they are, while insisting that we need to move forward and that this will be a much better experience all round for everyone. Sadly, it seldom turns out that way.
Hi Rod,
TBH I don't tend to suspect IT. In my experience, they are usually given a brief and a budget and the they have to fit a pint in a quart pot (or is it the other way round, I can never remember!).
Usually you find that a marketeer or accountant has come up with a "brilliant" idea that is then foisted on the rest of us. I would suspect it saves money and possibly "improves the brand image" and puts it in line with the rest of the Haymarket group rather than as a consideration for the readership. Of course, I could be wrong......
Regards,
Austin
Sat, Oct 9 2010, 11:50AM
#9
RE: CD Discontinuance RE: CD Discontinuance
Hi Andrew,
Thanks for the reply. I certainly don't disagree as to the volume/quantity or the ability to offer video.
Again it comes down to your reader base. Do they want more at lower quality with other video formats? Do they want to have to use a computer to access the music?
Mmm, waste of resources. That is personal preference, and I will certainly agree with you on the resource (enviromental) impact. But that doesn't explain why not to allow downloads and differing bit rates for you readership base? It does mean that you still have to use a PC, but at least you can burn it for use elsewhere! The bandwidth becomes less important too.
Alternativley, I know of at least one record label that has tried to use as much recycled resource as possible with a view to improving carbon footprint. Using recycled natural card for cases, vegitable based inks etc etc. Obviously, this doesn't negate the transport issue though.
All the best
Austin
Sat, Oct 9 2010, 12:43PM
#10
RE: CD Discontinuance RE: CD Discontinuance
puts it in line with the
rest of the Haymarket group
rest of the Haymarket group
Nothing to be in line with – no other Haymarket title has a player of this kind.
But that doesn't explain why not to allow downloads and differing bit rates for you readership base?
No, but the reason why the tracks aren't downloadable has already been covered several times on these forums, and as I said, we are not averse to looking at other file formats to see whether they are capable of offering better sound quality within the established parameters of the Gramophone Player.
Sat, Oct 9 2010, 1:49PM
#11
RE: Covermount CD Discontinuance
The lower the bitrate, the more gets thrown away. CD Audio runs at about 1.4Mbps, so for example to get down to even high-resolution MP3 files, at 320kbps, clearly quite a lot needs to be ditched; when you get down to 192kbps or even 128kbps, you’re only using a small fraction of the data on the original disc.'
Within the limitations of the bandwidth available for the Gramophone Player, I think the 256kbps bitrate is a sensible compromise for what is after all a sampler service, and not intended as an alternative to buying or downloading the music.
Hi Andrew,
Thank you for your helpful explanation of the bitrates, and for your audio advice on this website.
The Concise Oxford defines "sample" as "Small separated part of something illustrating the qualities of the mass etc. it is taken from". The cover CD fell fairly within this definition. The CD sample provided the same bitrates (and therefore quality of sound) as the whole CD of which it was a part. This cannot be said of the Gramophone Player from which, as you say, quite a lot of the data (and therefore quality of sound) has been ditched. I note you think the 256kbps bitrate is a sensible compromise (as compared with the 1.4Mbps of CD), but how compromised can a sample be before it ceases to be a sample at all? To my ears the sound quality of the Player through my desktop is distinctly inferior to a cover CD played through the same desktop.
Gramophone readers will differ in their habits and preferences. I can only speak for my own. I first subscribed to Gramophone for two main reasons:
1. because of the cover CD; and
2. because of your excellent Hi-fi section.
With the cover CD, I enjoyed listening to samples of music of good artistic and sound quality on the best audio equipment I have in my home. My desktop is upstairs and my hi-fi is downstairs. I do not want to run cables between floors or spend £1,500 on a decent DAC in order to listen to compressed music from the Gramophone Player on my hi-fi.
I know it's not your fault, Andrew, because you weren't involved in the
decision to change from the covermount CD to the Gramophone Player.
Maybe things could have been better if you had been.
To misquote John Duncan's eloquent phrase from Thursday, I think some of your readers may feel they have ended up a bit stuffed.
Regards,
Michael
Sat, Oct 9 2010, 2:33PM
#12
RE: Covermount CD Discontinuance
Am I missing something here?
Surely the Gramophone Player and the CD before it are means to an end, not an artifact in their own right. The Player exists as a buying guide and/or a temporay source of information. I don't need the highest possible sound quality to decide whether to purchase a piece of music or not. It is certainly good enough for the assessment of artistic merit. Nobody tests the sound quality of a CD before buying it. The reviewers do a good enough job of that.
No. This smacks of bees in bonnets taken way out of proportion. So what if the sample is not of the same sound quality? Or if you get the information through computer speakers when you previously got it from your hi-fi?
How is life one jot the poorer because the samples you are using as a buying guide and then discarding after listening to (once) not as good as your hi-fi?
It's just not important on any scale of values. All the points have been made. It's change, that's the problem for some.
Sat, Oct 9 2010, 4:52PM
#13
RE: CD Discontinuance
puts it in line with the
rest of the Haymarket group
rest of the Haymarket group
Nothing to be in line with – no other Haymarket title has a player of this kind
Hi Andrew,
My appologies, obviously wrong in that regard. My point was that often the wishes of a small part of a large company are overidden by group policy. I wasn't aware if this was the reason why Gramaphone had made this step.
Glad to read that the option of increasing bitrates would be consided as at least this addresses some of the concerns regarding quality - although it would still be far lower quality than CD.
That only leaves convinience. I understand that authorising downloads from the labels would be contraversial, but in reality it would be little different from providing copy unprotected format on the CD. You could make it password protected for subscribers also in order to control the content.
Regards,
Austin
Sat, Oct 9 2010, 5:00PM
#14
RE: Covermount CD Discontinuance
Hi Vic
It's change, that's the problem for some.
Its not that its "change", its the fact its change for the worse in almost all of he opinions of the posters in this thread. By Gramaphones own admission the quality is worse and the convinience factor is reduced - only the quantity is improved. This sounds like change for the worse to me.
It also depends on how people use the samplers (or used to in this case). I know myself that I would listen several times to a sampler at different times, often picking up on different subtle nuances in the music at different times. This would help me to make an informed choice and put it on my wish list, go out an buy it immediatley etc etc.
I still refer back to the cd's and sometime, its kind of nice being able to just listen to a well chosen and thought out variety of pieces, even if they are "just" snippets.
Regards,
Austin
Sat, Oct 9 2010, 5:24PM
#15
RE: Covermount CD Discontinuance
It's a pity that the discussion has wandered into the thickets of well-aired arguments elehere on his, and other forums, about compression rates/lossless formats etc etc. I should imagine that a large number of Gramophon readers are in the 50+ age group, in which case can they really tell the difference between 256 kps and other higher sampling rates? I can't, so it is not an issue for me. The real issues are the ones raised in my now very far back post - the position of those without access to computers - to which I should have added those with no or very limited broadband connections - try to download ono a dial up connection! Some of these unlucky people have made themelves known, but have simply been ignored or swept aside as luddites who are simply beyond the pale. Is it going to be left like this??
I suppose there are in theory as many arguements for the new player as there are against, but judging by the general concensus on this forum the latter is true.
Change for change sake is not always a good thing. For example does an antiquated and ancient but good quality cut throat razor produce better results than a new modern cartridge type?
Does a retro but high end vinyl player reproduce a better, warmer sound than a cd or mp3 player, you bet, to both points.
Am I ready to read the news via my electronic reader at breakfast or maybe I would still prefer the feel of a newspaper.
Do I want to listen to snippets of music, via cd, in my kitchen while cooking, or in my car while winding down on returning from work? Oh yes.
(As regards Snippets:Whats wrong with snippets anyway, I like snippets.)
The new player is an interesting, clever and easy to use peice of engineering but will people embrace it? I guess you pays your money and makes your choice.
I am sorry for the contributers on this forum and elsewhere who have shown loyalty in continuing to subsribe to the magazine over the decades and feel for their dissapointment for this decision and how it was taken.
Regards
"Humility and knowledge in poor clothes excell pride and ignorance in costly atire"
William Penn