...And if you are waiting for Simon Rattle or Sir Colin Davis to post here, I think you will be waiting a very long time.
What??? Doc, I thought you and your alter egos were Sir Colin Davis! Another illusion cruelly shattered.
Do people with an interest in chess or Byzantine architecture or military history consider themselves superior to everyone who doesn't share that interest? So why is classical music special? In other words - to restate my opening question - why are nutcases attracted to classical music?
Art needs qualitive judgements, indeed considering something 'art' in the first place is a qualitive judgement. Byzantine architecture or Military history do have qualitive judgements attached to them. If a professor of Byzantine architecture was watching a programme on BBC 4 about 'his subject' made by an 18 year old 'street wise chav' with little experience of the topic and only there because the BBC wanted to attract the 'yoof' he may very well say 'This is complete and utter tosh'. We should all be encouraged to make more qualitive judgements, our cheap comsumer society relies on the fact that we make far too few.
So Adrian, three truths in two posts.
But what is it about classical music precisely, that leads you to see your fellow human beings in terms of "heaps" to be at the top or bottom of? Or to contrast a "better human being" with a "mindless oaf" as if that were the only choice of moral worth on offer? I am reminded of Brodsky/Uber Alice/Hugh Farquar's "Those who choose the gutter are the gutter".
Whatever is at stake here for you to vent such bile?
Well, I could have put it like this: there is an awful lot of junk music, indeed junk culture in general, being fed to the public and too many people are ready to lap it up - encouraged by demagogues like the French minister of culture who said back in 1981 à propos his "Fête de la Musique" that "an amateur banging on a saucepan has as much worth as a trained professional" (sic) - and the result is that these people's potential is not realized, resulting in continual dissatifaction with their lives. This seems to me very sad.
I have nothing to say to a cretin like Troyen1. (He can't even spell: "too" instead of "to".)
You are sooooooo pretentious.
Put that book down, get yer haircut and join the rest of us in the 21st century.
I know it could be painful.
Curious that the default behaviour of those who advocate of the 'I like classical, therefore I am a superior person' position is either the witless ranting of Brodsky or the self-important (and menadacious) pomposity of Parla. Strikes me that this sort of behavior is no better than the caricature of popular culture (the 'chavs') that you so affect to despise.
I'm not sure that this thread has brought out the most sane side of anybody.
Perhaps that answers the original question.
Strikes me that this sort of behavior is no better than the caricature of popular culture (the 'chavs') that you so affect to despise.
WE are lovers of Art and Constructors. The Chavs are lovers of cheap lager, cheap music and destructors. We are better than them because we are educated.
Very pertinent point, Chris.
Curious that the initiator of the thread plus some of the usual suspects attribute "witless rantings" or "self-importance", "mendacity", "pomposity" (and some more) to build their argumentation on their..."hypothetical question".
I personally do not feel any superiority. Much more, I do not need it! However, I am very sincere that I feel very and consistently happy and secure, by following the path of constant learning, researching, deepening my experiences and widening my knowledge in Music as an Art. The fact that you wish to see me (and anybody like me) as described above makes me think that the problem is in you (is in your terrain).
Incidentally, I don't "despise" anybody. Thus, I respond to all of you, albeit not easily or without enough trouble, sometimes.
Well, I could have put it like this: there is an awful lot of junk music, indeed junk culture in general, being fed to the public and too many people are ready to lap it up -
This seems to me very sad.
Yes indeed, Adrian, there is an awful lot of junk in the world. But it doesn't follow that humanity is divided into "better human beings" enjoying classical music, and "mindless oafs" soaking up awful junk while swilling lager from a can does it?
There is a lot of music that is neither junk nor classical and it displays a breathtaking disrespect for others to caricature it in the way you suggest with this analogy.
And in passing, is Brodsky/Uber Alice the kind of classical music lover you had in mind as your "better human being"?
No, I'm sure it's a nice cuddly wooly liberal such as yourself victor.
That's just offensive on a number of levels.
It's just as bad to bash people who like classical music as it is for some of us who do like it to look down on other genres.
I don't like it when people do either.
I'm not going to be pretentious about it and I make soundtrack style classical music myself so if that bothers you when other people do it,
then maybe you shouldn't do the exact same thing back.
What this person said was also incredibly offensive to the mentally ill and to liberals everywhere.
Whoever it is,
they sound like one of those extremist conservatives that outright hate anyone who doesn't share the same beliefs as them.
I don't care what political side of the spectrum you're from, there's a lot to be said for civility and respecting others.
I am personally schizophrenic and I'm sick and tired of everyone calling people insane whenever they want to bash them for something.
No one seems to realize how offensive that is.
let's not look down on each other.
I personally like almost all styles of music.
Plus, classical and electronic go together like peanut butter and chocolate if you know what you're doing.
Check out "Beneath the Mantle" if you don't believe that:
(specifically when the guitarish keyboard track kicks in halfway through the 2nd part)
.... yes ...er well, on a lighter note, it has been raining quite a lot lately, I wonder if we will get a late summer this year. ...... would you mind passing the milk .........er, and the sugar.....
I remember very clearly visiting what is left of the concentration camps in Auschwitz eight years ago and reading at the time that there were times when Schumann, Beethoven, Wagner and other's music was played as people went to their deaths.
When we start to think that somehow the things that we enjoy/take comfort from are so sort of global panacea then we are truly losing sight of what it takes to be a decent human being.
I also remember reading Ian McEwan's novel 'Saturday' and finding the scene where somebody uses Arnold's 'Dover Beach' to disarm a villian in the midst of terrorising a family hilarious, which was not the intended effect I suspect.
One scene involving music that does I think have some turth to it is the moment from 'The Shawshank Redemption' went Andy decides to play Che soave zeffiretto (I think) over the tannoy (here). Yes it is sentimental and as likely in reality as McEwan's conceit and yet... well it does display the power of music to bring down walls within our life. No score required...
Naupilus, we should not confuse the power of the Music (and the score) itself with the incredible potential of human mind to distort, discredit, destroy this power. Don't blame the music (and the score), only the poor humans.
Parla, I did not think I was... what I was trying to say was simply to think that an appreciation of classical music (in this topic's particular case) does not corollate with a higher level of civility, intelligence or humanity.If it did, then 'Clockwork Orange' would be a comedy.