Emperor's New Clothes in Music?
Thu, Jul 21 2011, 12:35PM
I fancied a challenge last night so I pulled out Morton Feldman's String Quartet No.2, perhaps his most infamous piece, running at a crepscular 4 plus hours. I've never sat through the entire work before, so figured I should at least give it a go. To cut a (very) long quartet short, I managed 35 mins of monotony before throwing in the towel. It said absolutely nothing to me (maybe that's the point?) and I realised that my main impulse for purchasing it in the first place was because of it's very notoriety (which probably says more about me than Feldman!).
Now, I'm not here to have a pop at Morty. I have been listening to his music for almost 20 years and I deeply admire works like Piano and String Quartet, Rothko Chapel, Triadic Memories, Coptic Light and some of the earlier graphic score pieces like Atlantis, but it does strike me there's an element of the emperor's new clothes surrounding some of the later works? Doesn't the endurance-test element takes priority sometimes, justifying what can often be fairly uninvolving music. I recall one reviewer stating that with late Feldman that the longer the length of the piece the less material he actually uses. Conceptually I dig that notion, but the reality is somewhat less edifying.
I wonder if anyone else has an example of the emperor's new clothes in music?
Thu, Jul 21 2011, 6:15PM
#2
RE: Emperor's New Clothes in Music?
Good topic.
Perhaps the most famous example was the broadcast on the Third Programme, 1961, of Piotr Zak's Mobile, which was nothing more than Hans Keller and friend attacking various percussion instruments at random over an equally-random electronic tape. Many critics took it seriously.
Most of us find ourselves tiptoeing between the Scylla of being hoaxed into finding 'meaning' in what amounts to noise, and the Charybdis of pooh-poohing a piece of well-constructed but perhaps intricate music that we just can't fathom. There are many famous examples of the latter - the first horn player during the premiere of Schubert's 9th calling over to his mate, "you found a tune in this yet?", the rioters at the prem of Rite of Spring and so on.
In the end I expect we go on gut feel. We persevere because we sense there's something in there which will only reveal itself after repeated hearings, and the choice of where to throw in the towel is an individual one. Same when we're reading a novel. Some give up on page 15, others grit it out to the bitter end believing if the publishers committed it to print they must know something we don't.
My personal emperor's new clothes composer is Arvo Part. On one of his works, years ago, one critic eulogised the "remarkable lack of eventuation" - itself a red light. Fans of nonsense usually resort to gobbledygook to support their faves. Saying 'nothing's going on' would have been equally accurate but left the emperor naked.
Thu, Jul 21 2011, 11:43PM
#3
RE: Emperor's New Clothes in Music?
I am not so sure I would recognise conceptual music if I heard it or heard it described.
However, I do recognise conceptual art: a movement that is well past its sell-by date and to be found in numerous examples in the Saatchi Collection to the detriment of all other forms of art.
Personally, I find some of Part's music very moving. I've got to move on when its on, as it were, like the 4th symphony premiered at the Proms last year. I know why he grows a beard, it is easier for him to stifle a laugh as the critics lap up this tosh.
Fri, Aug 5 2011, 5:46AM
#4
RE: Emperor's New Clothes in Music?
where can i find the music?
Fri, Aug 5 2011, 12:27PM
#5
RE: Emperor's New Clothes in Music?
An example(s) would be whatever the classical music establishment classify as 'emperor's new clothes'. The establishment also define what is 'quality' and 'enjoyment'.
('crepuscular' as in resembling or relating to twilight?)
Sat, Aug 6 2011, 10:28AM
#6
RE: Emperor's New Clothes in Music?
I thought of this post when I saw this:
'Too many pieces of music finish too long after the end'.
Ivor Stravinsky/aphorismsgalore.com
Sat, Aug 6 2011, 2:20PM
#7
RE: Emperor's New Clothes in Music?
An example(s) would be whatever the classical music establishment classify as 'emperor's new clothes'. The establishment also define what is 'quality' and 'enjoyment'.
('crepuscular' as in resembling or relating to twilight?)
Did the 'establishment' define the 'enjoyment' of that Proms concert I heard the other night because if they did how did they know?
My youngest daughter thinks it's all because of the Illuminati. That's fine by me because she also thinks that I am a member (the Illuminati, that is, not the 'establishment' although it occurs to me that they may be the same thing or, at least, close).
Sun, Aug 7 2011, 7:37AM
#8
RE: Emperor's New Clothes in Music?
Hello troyen1 - I suppose I'm making the point that you and I can't influence what's played at the Proms and that the management sometimes knowingly choose to play unpopular music because they think it's good for us. I also think that there must be a lot of 'emperor's new clothes' about atonal music which is not 'enjoyed' in the same way as tonal music.
That said, apart from Prom 19 (Honegger, Berg, Castiglioni, Debussy) which I had to abandon due to the dissonance, there's been plenty of tonal music to enjoy. I probably wouldn't want to change anything given that lovers of atonal music are license fee payers too.
Is you daughter into music? I thought Prom 20, Horrible Histories was a great for kids.
Sun, Aug 7 2011, 11:18PM
#9
RE: Emperor's New Clothes in Music?
Hello troyen1 - I suppose I'm making the point that you and I can't influence what's played at the Proms and that the management sometimes knowingly choose to play unpopular music because they think it's good for us. I also think that there must be a lot of 'emperor's new clothes' about atonal music which is not 'enjoyed' in the same way as tonal music.
That said, apart from Prom 19 (Honegger, Berg, Castiglioni, Debussy) which I had to abandon due to the dissonance, there's been plenty of tonal music to enjoy. I probably wouldn't want to change anything given that lovers of atonal music are license fee payers too.
Is you daughter into music? I thought Prom 20, Horrible Histories was a great for kids.
Personally, I have no wish to influence the Proms and if asked what I would like to hear played at the Proms would as likely request 'Wellington's Victory' as I would the obscurer choral works of Berlioz.
I have no problem with some atonal or dissonant music and have a taste for some Berg, Schoenberg and Pettersson, to name the first few that come to mind.
I want the Proms to surprise and delight me with its programming and it has come up trumps this year with a rarely performed Rossini opera, a symphony by Havergall Brian, the two symphonies of Liszt and two symphonies of Nielsen, for example! A bumper year?
My daughter is in her early twenties, a trainee nurse, hot, with dyed red hair, a tattoo of pastel coloured butterflies running down her back and leg and a taste in music that I do not think is of this planet. She 'glams up' for Facebook<sigh>.
Mon, Aug 8 2011, 10:01AM
#10
RE: Emperor's New Clothes in Music?
That would be an innovation if the Proms accepted requests. Let's start a campaign on facebook. (Just joking). But I would like to be a fly on the wall during planning and commissioning meetings.
Wellington's Victory would be splendid - it would be interesting to see how the practical problems would be dealt with at the Royal Albert. I have the 1995 CD of the 1960 recording of London Symphony Orchestra's version on Mercury Living Presence. There's a sticker on the cd case - 'CAUTION! LIVE CANNONS and MUSKETS'
I have heard and enjoyed works this year that I wouldn't have otherwise so I'm happy with that. I try atonal music now and again to see if my tastes have changed over the years but it hasn't happened (yet?).
My son - late 20s, single, was in Germany recently. He thinks the German women are flawless and plans to go back later this year to find a wife. I would prefer that he marries and English nurse - even one with tattoos - can we arrange something? (just joking again).
Wed, Aug 17 2011, 4:52PM
#11
RE: Emperor's New Clothes in Music?
The "Emperor's New Clothes" concept as applied to classical music is one that never fails to amuse me. Are listeners so afraid of being "hoaxed" that they take it to the opposite extreme, and think nothing of denigrating composers or works whose appeal happens to elude them? I just assume that even composers whose work I don't like are sincere about their music, and their fans sincere about liking it.
Though I admit Piotr Zak sounded like he was trying too hard.
-Gary
Not entirely sure why you think quartet No.2 is ‘an example of the emperor's new clothes’ – all you’ve said is that you don’t like the experience of listening to it. The point about an emperor’s new clothes piece is that there is a consensus of people who profess to liking it, whilst in reality it’s totally devoid of quality – a sort of conspiracy if you like.
But I can’t see any such conspiracy here. I would imagine that the most fervent admirer of the quartet wouldn’t seriously suggest that it was enjoyable to listen to in the same way as say a Chopin prelude or a Mozart piano concerto.
Instead it’s effectively (to use your word) a conceptual piece which seeks to push the boundaries of what music is and therefore to examine the nature of music itself. Perhaps other examples in this category are La Monte Young's Trio for Strings, Yves Klein’s Monotone Symphony, and perhaps even John Cage’s 4:33. None of these are actively pleasurable to listen to – because none are intended to be pleasurable. You could actually go a step further and say that there is no actual need to listen to them at all (in the same way there is no need to actually see conceptual works of art), - all you need to be told is that there’s a string quartet which takes 6 hours to perform, or a piano piece which consists of total silence for four and a half minutes.
You said it meant ‘absolutely nothing’ to you. Perhaps the mistake you made was in assuming that for any meaning to arise, you had to listen to it in the first place?