Exists the so-called "definitive" versions??
Wed, May 15 2013, 8:37AM
#2
RE: Exists the so-called "definitive" versions??
For the record of the ocassional "passer-by of this forum", in my post I never even implied I know the language of any composer. I just said I would be more than grateful, if I can be in a position to trace or identify even a fraction of the technical/musical merits therein.
For our Tagalie, I don't accept the concept of "subjectivity" or "taste" only as for the technical/musical features of the work of Music. There is plenty of subjectivity and taste in all the other aspects of the work of Art (popularity, acceptance by public, audiences around the world, frequency of performances, commercial promotion etc.).
Parla
Wed, May 15 2013, 9:11AM
#3
RE: Exists the so-called "definitive" versions??
Returning to the original subject of this thread, the question of 'definitive' recordings:
To me the term 'reference' recordings seems much more appropriate. A 'reference' recording being one which sets a high standard and against which newcomers, or newly discovered recordings, are compared and either found wanting, or not as the case may be. These 'reference' recordings used, in the old days, to be those benchmark recordings which featured in comparative reviews when a new version appeared.
Reference recordings, and their mention in comparative reviews enable(d) the reader to get an idea of what a newly reviewed recording was like. Toscanini's or Klemperer's Beethoven are examples of reference recordings. You don't have to like them, and they are not definitive recordings but, just as it says on the tin, valuable points of reference.
Nowadays with so many CDs being issued of almost every significant work and so many different criteria considered important by different reviewers and different listeners, even the idea of a 'reference' recording is perhaps becoming harder to sustain. Or not?
Chris
Wed, May 15 2013, 10:15AM
#4
RE: Exists the so-called
'the world's authority on classical music' ... get paid for it and get great Christmas presents from the leading recording companies for lying to us.
This latest from Team Brodsky can, and no doubt soon will be, deleted. But a much more satisfactory outcome, to this Gramophone reader anyway, would be a call to its lawyers (myself having been on the receiving end of an even nastier accusation from the same source.)
Vic.
You either don't understand using pseudonyms on the internet or you don't understand the law, probably both. I think the Gramophone would have a hard time proving that any of it's contributors had never written favourable reviews in return for financial gain or gifts, and that is just this month.
Wed, May 15 2013, 3:33PM
#5
RE: Exists the so-called
"Technically todays musicians are far better than the sentimental whiners of yesteryear" (Sydney Nuff said)
technically....could be, but they dont have the profundity, integrity, knowledge, conviction, etc, of an Arrau or Backhaus, for example. Lazar Berman said "today exist only performers, not really interpreters", I would add "Jet set" stars, like Lang Lang (or "Bang bang" as you call him), but not personalities! On the other hand, the orchestras dissolves, labels close, artists migrate looking for new scenarios, conductors and performers dies, everyone knows that we are facing a crisis, and you say that we are living in a paradise?? With all my respect...I can't agree with you at this point! oscar.olavarria
Wed, May 15 2013, 3:48PM
#6
RE: Exists the so-called "definitive" versions??
You start getting it very well, dear Oscar. You describe the situation very well. We have excellent performers, but not brilliant! However, in Chamber Music few groups and still some soloists (mostly in instrumental music) have a considerable degree of character, style and even depth.
Parla
Wed, May 15 2013, 3:58PM
#7
RE: Exists the so-called
"Technically todays musicians are far better than the sentimental whiners of yesteryear" (Sydney Nuff said)
technically....could be, but they dont have the profundity, integrity, knowledge, conviction, etc, of an Arrau or Backhaus, for example. Lazar Berman said "today exist only performers, not really interpreters. Oscar.olavarria
Style, personality, profundity, integrity, knowledge, conviction are marketing terms for lack of technical ability or an over used operatic voice. In much the same way that a flat the size of a telephone box is conveniently bixou or a tatty mirror has a beautiful patina. It's your money however, yours to waste.
Wed, May 15 2013, 4:21PM
#8
RE: Exists the so-called
"Style, personality, profundity, integrity, knowledge, conviction are marketing terms..."(Sydney)
Arrau, Backhaus, Serkin, Haskil, Curzon, Solomon, etc, marketers?? as I know Clara Haskil v. gr. does'nt have none commercial sense, inclusive in one opportunity creditors repossessed her piano...of debts! oscar.olavarria
Wed, May 15 2013, 5:13PM
#9
RE: Exists the so-called
"Style, personality, profundity, integrity, knowledge, conviction are marketing terms..."(Sydney)
Arrau, Backhaus, Serkin, Haskil, Curzon, Solomon, etc, marketers?? as I know Clara Haskil v. gr. does'nt have none commercial sense, inclusive in one opportunity creditors repossessed her piano...of debts! oscar.olavarria
I seriously doubt that any of the musicians you mention ever criticised the younger generation en masse for having only technical ability and could find no artists among them.
Wed, May 15 2013, 6:33PM
#10
RE: Exists the so-called "definitive" versions??
Nowadays with so many CDs being issued of almost every significant work and so many different criteria considered important by different reviewers and different listeners, even the idea of a 'reference' recording is perhaps becoming harder to sustain. Or not?
Chris
Agreed.
You'll generally find the so-called reference recordings come from a particular era. They were often the first good stereo recordings of a work featuring top-class, or in some cases just well-known, artists. Reviewers of the day went gaga. Thereafter, those reviewers being of a certain age, hardening of the arteries set in and they approached subsequent issues of the same work with a boatload of preconceptions. They don't make them the way they used to, todays footballers/policemen/popstars/cars/ales/kids are a load of rubbish.
Fair enough, it's a universal human frailty. Herd instinct is another one and all kinds of people are more than ready to accept those long-standing opinions as gospel. However, you don't have to spend much time on this or other classical music forums to come across more than a sprinkling of aficionados who think such holy recordings as the Kleiber Beethoven 7, the Michelangeli Ravel PC in G, the Barbirolli Mahler 5 etc. have not only been superseded many times but were garbage in the first place.
The beauty of musical debate is that only the bone-headed (no names, no pack drill) persist in attempting to prove themselves or anybody else right or wrong. The concept of 'definitive' recording is one of many examples of how ludicrous it is to try to do so. The discussion can be enjoyable, worth tackling for the sake of opinion-testing, but at the end of the day it will always be unresolved.
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'the world's authority on classical music' ... get paid for it and get great Christmas presents from the leading recording companies for lying to us.
This latest from Team Brodsky can, and no doubt soon will be, deleted. But a much more satisfactory outcome, to this Gramophone reader anyway, would be a call to its lawyers (myself having been on the receiving end of an even nastier accusation from the same source.)
Vic.