Going back to CDs from downloads – because of gapless issues
Wed, Oct 20 2010, 10:36PM
#2
RE: Going back to CDs...
12tone - it's possible that you have 'golden ears' but just don't know it yet. Go on - push the boat out - give FLAC a try.
Okay, I've downloaded Dudamel/Bolivar playing Bernstein's Mambo from Passionato as both an mp3 and a FLAC, and listened to them in Audacity and in VLC on my Bose QC2s and my Sennheiser HD600s. My ears can detect no difference whatsoever.
The last time I compared CD and mp3 on identical recordings was years ago, and the mp3 (probably at iTunes' old 160kbps or whatever it was) was noticeably less brilliant. So
1. my hearing's deteriorated since then (no doubt true to some extent), and/or
2. 320kbps is MUCH closer to lossless than 160 (or whatever it was), and/or
3. VLC and Audacity are not playing the FLAC properly, which seems unlikely, and/or
4. the Bose and the Sennheisers aren't good enough to show the difference (but I do most of my listening on headphones these days anyway).
So I'm going to save money and stick to mp3 downloads, except for continuous-music albums where I'll avoid the gaplessness nightmare by buying nasty old CDs and ripping to mp3.
Thu, Oct 21 2010, 5:22AM
#3
RE: Going back to CDs...
12 tone : My guess (hope?) is that option 4 is your situation. However, I'm in the throes of upgrading my audio gear to deal with FLAC so I'll download the Bernstein, buy the CD, do comparisons and report back. Thanks for trying my suggestion. This is becoming an absorbing experiment.
Fri, Nov 12 2010, 9:26AM
#4
RE: Going back to CDs...
Just a quick note to say I've not forgotten this experiment. I've just ordered the CD and am now considering buying some new headphones because my Grados have broken. But wait a moment - my FLAC DAC doesn't have a headphone socket.......
Fri, Nov 12 2010, 11:30AM
#5
RE: Going back to CDs...
Okay, I've downloaded Dudamel/Bolivar playing Bernstein's Mambo from Passionato as both an mp3 and a FLAC, and listened to them in Audacity and in VLC on my Bose QC2s and my Sennheiser HD600s. My ears can detect no difference whatsoever.
That puts you in the same position as the (vast) majority of people who do double-blind tests with high-bitrate mp3s v. lossless :-)
1. my hearing's deteriorated since then (no doubt true to some extent)
2. 320kbps is MUCH closer to lossless than 160 (or whatever it was), and/or
4. the Bose and the Sennheisers aren't good enough to show the difference (but I do most of my listening on headphones these days anyway).
1. is probably true - you'll probably have lost some high frequency range. Try these test tones. As that site says, " It’s fairly common for people who are over 25 years of age to not be able to hear above 15kHz, so this will help you find out where your high frequency hearing cuts off."
2. is certainly true.
4. may be true, but, in the case of the Sennheiser HD600's at least, I doubt it.
Wed, Nov 17 2010, 4:55PM
#6
RE: Going back to CDs...
Lizzie, I'm with you. It's completely random and isn't even consistent within a (virtual) boxed set! (I downloaded the Abbado Mahler cycle from Passionato. Annoyingly DG have used multiple tracks per movement for some symphonies and in some cases this works perfectly and others it doesn't.)
Passionato have been good about offering refunds, emusic less so. Thus far I've been lucky with Amazon. But now I avoid anything that needs gapless to be enjoyed!
Some people seem excited about work-rounds but I want to listen to music, not fiddle about with it on a PC. I agree FLAC helps but availability is lower and it doesn't doesn't play on my IPod.
I'm baffled that more people aren't annoyed by this!
Thu, Nov 18 2010, 4:42PM
#7
RE: Going back to CDs...
I don't buy downloads solely for this reason. I ran into the problem early. I will not spend any more time trying to solve it. Either it works out the box, so to speak, or I don't want it. It has to play and burn seamlessly on any freely available player, and the vendor has to say so. The reason no-one guarantees downloads is that they don't always work. I figure that when they get it right they'll tell us, loudly and clearly, since they know that some of us are holding out. Simple as that.
Thu, Nov 18 2010, 8:46PM
#8
RE: Going back to CDs...
I've been irritated by this for some time. Some labels seem to have no issues, others have random problems.
Chandos is a particular problem.
The only solution I've got results from is using Total Recorder to shave off a few seconds. This normally works - but not always. Customers shouldn't have to do this.
I agree that the record companies should be transparent about this issue until they've sorted the problem.
'Please be advised that you may hear gaps between tracks of continuous music'.
Fri, Nov 19 2010, 6:22PM
#9
RE: Going back to CDs...
You'd think - seventeen years since the launch of mp3 - that they'd have got round to solving basic problems of functionality like this. I guess they think, if the punters are coughing up why bother? Assuming a thirty year format life, I guess mp3 is now entering the latter half of its time on this earth, so we may never see a solution to this problem. The end of mp3, eh? I'm looking forward to the discussions in the hi-fi [sic] columns about mp3 vs. direct neurological interface.
Tue, Nov 23 2010, 10:25AM
#10
RE: Going back to CDs...
The Chandos disc of the Arnold ballet music that came out last year is a case in point. If you buy the download version, you have a choice of putting up with the gaps or for all three ballets seguing into each other. I opted for both versions, but after the frustration of waiting through the pause/worrying that my CD player may have given up the ghost decided for sanity's sake to go for the still unsatisfactory gapless version.
Since it is unlikely that anyone would purchase just one track from this album, wouldn't it be better if the download were sold as three long tracks, one for each ballet?
Wed, Jan 12 2011, 1:47PM
#11
RE: Going back to CDs...
To conclude my comments about sound quality: I experimented with Bernstein/Mambo and other music in my high-end audio system and concluded that 320kbps is OK for casual listening but not refined enough for longer critical listening sessions. I don't have 'golden ears' either - I can't hear above 8000khz in the above listening test - but I can still detect qualities such as punch/attack and acoustics/ambience.
For me then, it's about how much to spend on my next DAC upgrade. I need an old fashioned hi-fi shop willing to let me audition some kit at home. Does anyone know of such a service still in existence?
Thu, Jan 13 2011, 12:08PM
#12
RE: Going back to CDs...
I experimented with Bernstein/Mambo and other music in my high-end audio system and concluded that 320kbps is OK for casual listening but not refined enough for longer critical listening sessions. I don't have 'golden ears' either - I can't hear above 8000khz in the above listening test - but I can still detect qualities such as punch/attack and acoustics/ambience.
Just out of interest, was that proper blind ABX type testing, or did you know which source was which when you were listening to them?
Thu, Jan 13 2011, 6:15PM
#13
RE: Going back to CDs...
Hello SpiderJon - I knew the sources. I'm a humble amateur with humble entry level high-end 2 channel audio which I bought 10 years ago. At the time, I was trying to reproduce the sound of a live orchestra in my living room. I was relying on my memory of what an orchestra sounded like in my local City Hall. I think I achieved that, except for the width of the sound stage.
I was happy with CDs but now that the 24/96 genie is out, it's all back in the melting pot.
Sun, Jan 16 2011, 11:44PM
#14
RE: Going back to CDs...
I'm resolutely sticking to CD as my main format and don't intend to change my position on this. All the issues with gapless playback, backing-up files safely and messing around with different file formats etc. are just additional distractions from the music for me.
CD buyers have never had it better. There has never been more bargain-priced box sets and single discs of amazing music and now is the time to gather together a big and comprehensive collection at relatively little outlay. I've been picking up the EMI Great Recordings (being replaced by an even cheaper re-packaging now) for very reasonable prices and I've had great success with several superb box sets in recent months - the two DG 111 sets (55 and 56 discs!), the Audite Furtwangler RIAS set, the EMI Barbirolli set, the Chandos 30th Anniversary set etc. etc.
Once I've got all these great recordings I'm not going to want to buy them again in downloaded files. I like the whole package of the CD - something physical with liner notes etc. - and I love the simplicity of slipping a disc into my Arcam CD player and just being able to enjoy the music. I'm 'filling my boots' while CDs are still available.
Mon, Jan 17 2011, 4:16PM
#15
RE: Going back to CDs...
Hello matthewpiano - I agree that downloading and backing up is a hassle, but I'm just left with the feeling that CDs no longer provide the best possible sound quality.
On my wish list is a FLAC streaming classical music service - I would pay £10 to £15 per month. Any entrepreneurs reading this?
12tonelizzie - I've done a bit of Googling, and given that you are using iTunes and an iPod Classic, you should in theory be able to play ALL MP3 files gaplessly, regardless of source.
All versions of iTunes since v7 do their own analysis of MP3 files, and add gapless data to the tags. So you should not be having the problems you suggest (at least in iTunes or on the iPod).
EDITED BY MODS - House Rules
Just a quick response to point out (with thanks for the effort you've put into this) that the gapless problem absolutely DOES exist on certain albums – and I'm fairly certain it's in the files, not my software and hardware. I've checked in both iTunes 8 and iTunes 10 (latest version), on more than one computer, and on my iPod Classic. Just download the Solti Tannhäuser and try it. geoffstllng points out that he has a similar problem on the Solti Meistersinger. This suggests to me that these two albums were converted to mp3 in a batch, before (or at any rate without) the right processing for gapless playback.
Yes, I will check out FLAC download possibilities, but as far as I'm aware this will mean losing the cheapness and smallness of mp3s. I have well over 100GB of mp3s on my iPod now (mainly what was my CD collection), and I'm not going to start deleting it all so I can squeeze on big lossless files.
Perhaps, like geofstllng, I'll keep downloading cheap mp3s in works that I know are not seamless. But even Kubelik's Schoenberg 5 Pieces was ruined for me by the between-movement hiccups in the old tape hiss.
It's nice that so many people are offering suggestions for avoiding the problem, but the take-home point here is that the problem EXISTS: contrary to the assumption that the gapless playback issue was 'solved' by iTunes 7, the major online vendors are still offering continuous-music mp3 downloads which CANNOT be played gaplessly, and you will not find it easy to get your money back.