Gramophone Guide to Best Mahler Recordings
Tue, Oct 9 2012, 5:05PM
I thought it would be a good idea to start a post to give forum members an opportunity to comment on the recent Gramophone Mahler selections. (Someone else might want to start a post on the other major composers, as and when they appear........)
I will kick off with just a few comments:
1. Very annoying to see two Karajan recommendations back to back for symphony no.9. They may be worthy candidates, but when there is only space for three or four recommendations, why have two the same? (Same conductor, same orchestra, virtually the same time.) Why not use the valuable space to point listeners in the direction of a different performer? (The same applies to many other holy cow recommendations in the Guide. Want Schubert lieder? Fischer-Dieskau 1955, 1962, 1963 live, 1966...........) In addition, do we really have to have FOUR BPO recordings? Are there no other worthy contenders?
2. I don't really understand the Jurowski Mahler 2 taking first place. The orchestral playing is wonderful and the conducting makes you sit up and listen anew, but the mezzo - Christine Stotijin - is just awful. Lovely when quiet, warbley and ugly when under pressure. Completely wrecks the recording for me. Certainly, if you are sensitive to excessive vibrato, then you had better find something else to listen to.
3. Nice to see so many old recordings given a good talking up (wonderful sound! marvellous transfer!). If you want Das Lied, you get three old ones, including TWO by Ferrier. Apparently, no-one has managed a decent recording in the last thirty years.........
I could say more, but three points seems enough for now........
Tue, Oct 9 2012, 8:15PM
#2
RE: Gramophone Guide to Best Mahler Recordings
I had just posted a reply in the "recordings" groupd under best Mahler recordings. Someone ticked me off as it had been an awsome thread. Still I felt rather uncofortamble wth the publication of the guide to Mahler's recordings. The danger is that one goes back into the catalogue recalling some old marvellous recordings. Somehow I feel that the published guide is lacks body and base. Some current orchestra's were exposed to Mahler's baton. Sometimes I sense, especially with the Royal Concertgebouw Orchestra, that Mahler's ghost is still directing the orchestra.
Somewhat rather surprised, to put it mildly, I miss reference to Mahler's link with Amsterdam and especially the Concertgebouw Orchestra. Besides that Haitink should certainly be in the list of leading "Mahlerians" so should be the RCO.
We can't argue about taste. I feel that the recording of Mahler's fifth
with the RCO conducted by Ricardo Chailly should be in the list.
Musically, technically and artistically the recording breaths Mahler.
When you hear and listen to the RCO life it feels as if Mahler is still standing in front of the orchestra. Some, not all, RCO recordings give that same sense.
It is incomprehensible not to see Berhard
Haitink being quoted. Somebody who
carries with him the history of Mahler in his genes. The bricks and mortar of the Concertgebouw
hall as well as the RCO carry the sound of Mahler.
Tue, Oct 9 2012, 11:51PM
#3
RE: Gramophone Guide to Best Mahler Recordings
I have mentioned, on several occasions, that Gramophone's guide to "best" recordings of various composers are only indicative, not definitive recommendations. They are useful as reading material, not to take them as the only or much more the best choices.
In any case, in performances, choices become much more personal, subjective and elusive. Depending on the basis of your criteria, you may reach to a different outcome. Eliza, for example, dismisses a marvellous and praised almost everywhere Jurowski on account of a poor mezzo (for me she was not that terrible). However, if she relies pretty much on the voice of the mezzo, in her limited but significant role in the Symphony, then, she is right.
If you are attached with the "holy" tradition of RCO and...Haitink, then, Mahler will always mean anything related to this venue and some great conductors who served there. However, I've seen Haitink, few times, in my years in Berlin. Outside RCO and with a very different orchestra as BPO, he sounded at least as a "golden mediocrity" (and that was not my opinion only).
So, you may talk endlessly about the shortcomings of Gramophone's recommendations, which, unfortunately, carry the pompous name of the "best", but we should not forget our own. Particularly, for a composer so diverse, difficult in reading, complex and, to some extent, even controversial, any discussion for "definitive" performances is utterly futile. In the best possible case, it might be entertaining.
Parla
Wed, Oct 10 2012, 12:23AM
#4
RE: Gramophone Guide to Best Mahler Recordings
However, I've seen Haitink, few times, in my years in Berlin. Outside RCO and with a very different orchestra as BPO, he sounded at least as a "golden mediocrity" (and that was not my opinion only).
Parla
What exactly do you mean by 'golden mediocrity', and is your use of that term exclusively related to Haitink's Mahler? Having seen Haitink on very many occasions, conducting (amongst others) the RCO, BPO, VPO, the LSO and at the ROH, I'm intrigued.
Wed, Oct 10 2012, 9:37AM
#5
RE: Gramophone Guide to Best Mahler Recordings
Haitink finds the music in Mahler and he deals with Mahler. Take Mahlers 6th. Bernstein over inflates Mahler into his own personal god, however it's a god built in Bernstein's image. Bernstein gives us the noise that inspired Mahler, Haitink gives us the music Mahler turned his experiences into. Karajan gives us a highly polished sports car or private jet and poses in front of it for photographs. Haitink may not shock the way Bernstein does or sooth the way Karajan does but Haitink isn't interested in 'your' personal problems or 'his' ego, he is just interested in Mahler.
Wed, Oct 10 2012, 11:08AM
#6
RE: Gramophone Guide to Best Mahler Recordings
You touch there an element exposing the difference between Bernstein, Karajan, Haitink. Von Karajan polished his recordings (DGG) like his cars. DGG could never release a von Karajan recording unless he had polished it/edited in the studio's after the recording. DGG produced at the recordings a 16 track digital tape, which was then edited by von Karajan. DECCA e.g. made it is final recordings on two tracks, stereo (we have got only one pair of ears) At the recording sessions levels of microphones etc. were adjusted according to the conductor/producer's wishes. That was it no final fiddling afterwards. We'll have to accept that ego is often a crucial element in a performance. Sometimes ego can work to the detriment of a recording/performance.
Wed, Oct 10 2012, 11:21AM
#7
RE: Gramophone Guide to Best Mahler Recordings
Entertaining it certainly is.
The Gramophone is a little daring in talking about Best.
It is of
course very personal influenced by so many elements not in the least your own
feeling at the time of listening/attending a concert.
On top of that an environmental
element plays I feel a crucial role. I have heard RCO with Janssons
performing Mahler in Lucerne, the same in the Concertgebouw in Amsterdam, I
rather spend my money on travelling to Amsterdam than wasting it on the
acoustic of the KKL in Lucerne.
Wed, Oct 10 2012, 11:23AM
#8
RE: Gramophone Guide to Best Mahler Recordings
......Haitink gives us the music Mahler turned his experiences into. Karajan gives us a highly polished sports car or private jet and poses in front of it for photographs. Haitink may not shock the way Bernstein does or sooth the way Karajan does but Haitink isn't interested in 'your' personal problems or 'his' ego, he is just interested in Mahler.
You're right - and the lack of an imposed ego is something that's welcomely evident not only in his Mahler.
Wed, Oct 10 2012, 12:07PM
#9
RE: Gramophone Guide to Best Mahler Recordings
No, JKH, I don't refer to Haitink's Mahler, but to Haitink in Berlin with BPO. He performed Bruckner, Mahler (once) and Beethoven, on three different occasions. None was that memorable to go beyond what I may call "golden mediocrity".
On the contrary, Abbado did some Mahler truly memorable (for some of the Berliners even monumental, not for me). Janssons too, however, to a lesser extent.
Parla
Wed, Oct 10 2012, 2:15PM
#10
RE: Gramophone Guide to Best Mahler Recordings
Speaking of Mahler and Haitink, for those who may not have noticed or paid the appropriate attention, there is a new 2nd with Hatink from the series "Edition Staatskapelle Dresden, Vol.33" of the German label Profil.
Gramophone noticed it and gave it the accolade of the "Editor's Choice" for October. The soloists (for Eliza) are Charlotte Margiono and Jard van Nes. Not the best voices available.
The CD sounds fine, but not the best we may expect. The performance betrays its qualities. Dresden is a tremendous orchestra, anyway.
Parla
Wed, Oct 10 2012, 3:14PM
#11
RE: Gramophone Guide to Best Mahler Recordings
I'm still none the wiser as to what 'golden mediocrity' might possily mean, but having frequently heard all three conduct the BPO in Mahler (Haitink, Abbado and Janssons) I would desribe none of them as mediocre, of whatever hue, and certainly not Haitink. Still, each to his own, I suppose.
Wed, Oct 10 2012, 8:27PM
#12
RE: Gramophone Guide to Best Mahler Recordings
I've several recordings in most of Mahler's works by the likes of Haitink, Bernstein, Rattle, Karajan, Tennstedt, Solti, Klemperer, Abbado, Maazel and others and enjoy the variety of interpretations. For example in the fifth Bernstein's indulgent adagietto is a world away from Tennstedt playing it straight, but I enjoy both and my mood dictates which one I play. I don't find any of the interpretations I have objectionable and can live comfortably with Karajan's sports cars and Bernstein's ego!
The list published on Gramophone's website was always going to be predictable re-hash of numerous top recordings lists in the yearbooks, Penguin guides, etc, but it's interesting to read and has certainly got the forum in full flow. Lets hope it serves to draw in new listeners to Mahler's unique sound world.
Wed, Oct 10 2012, 9:07PM
#13
RE: Gramophone Guide to Best Mahler Recordings
Graham,
You raise a good point. I think I must be the same. I have my favourite recordings, but also ones I turn to depending upon the mood at the time. I am really enjoying the Gielen set at the moment: too cool for some, but that's just what I want right now. Another day, I will reach for something a bit hotter.
As to this business of "ego", that never makes any sense to me. I can only presume that each conductor simply interprets the music the way they think it should be interpreted. They do what feels right. I can't see that ego has anything to do with it.
Fri, Oct 12 2012, 12:19AM
#14
RE: Gramophone Guide to Best Mahler Recordings
Well, I guess my 75 years are showing, but I was disappointed to see no mention of the Walter Mahler 1 made in New York or the Boult Mahler 6 or the Horenstein Mahler 7 and 8.
Fri, Oct 12 2012, 1:11AM
#15
RE: Gramophone Guide to Best Mahler Recordings
I have to admit that, as somebody pointed out, the only really creditable reason for Gramophone making such a list is to draw a new listener into Mahler. Mahler music is 'like the world' - it is far to wide ranging in mood and motive to be entirely encompassed in one recording/performance. If you really do allow Mahler under your skin you will end up having multiple recordings of the symphonies.
I have to say that I do agree with some of Parla's sentiments regarding Haitink. While I have only heard Haitink live with the LPO and Concertgebouw I always encounter some minor level of disatisfaction with his Mahler recordings. Yes, he may well be the antidote to Bernstein's overwhelming (good and bad) interpretations but (and this is purely personal) I feel Haitink maps out the contours of Mahler's landscapes, without actually ever getting his feet dirty. There is modesty and then there is reticence - I have the same feeling regarding Haitink's Beethoven too. Bruckner works better.
As for Karajan I have a lot of time for the live recording of the ninth, which feels all of a piece. Here is a work that defies catagorisation beyond a simple level in that various approaches, if committed to absolutely, work. The best two performances I know I heard live - Chailly in Amsterdam and Abbado with the LSO. I actually also have a lot of affection for Abbado's VPO recording (which was contemporary to the LSO performances - I have a friend who swears that we were robbed of the best performance because DG went to Vienna for the recording, rather than London). The earlier Abbado recording comes from the same line of thought as Gielen and Maderna to my ears - less the death of romanticism and more the birth of modernism. When I listen to perfromances that echo the soundworld of Berg and Schoenberg I understand why Berg was so awestruck by the ninth.
Well Eliza, I don't think we could expect anything different. From your thread on Old vs. New Recordings, it's obvious that there is a multitude of opinions, and that's just about the recording. There are several threads running simultaneously at the moment on the best Mahler performances on CD, from which the only clear conclusion is a complete lack of consensus for almost any of the symphonies.
Any list is almost certainly doomed to either be 'too obvious' or 'too eccentric'.
What, no Mengelberg, virtually no Walter, no Klemperer on the one side....
What, not all those old recordings again, on the other....
Lists of favourites from Forum members are fine - they are reflections of members' tastes, no more, but I'm never quite sure who these 'Gramophone Guides' are for, especially as they seem to change regularly. Perhaps therein lies the answer.
Chris
Chris A.Gnostic