Is moderation a virtue in Classical Music?
Mon, Apr 1 2013, 6:08PM
The other day, I had an interesting and vivid discussion with some friends (musicians and people involved in music) about moderation in Classical Music.
Our deliberations had as a basis, among other things, the well-known (at least to those who have dealt with Ancient Greek Studies) saying "pan metron ariston (παν μέτρον άριστον)", which is quite difficult to literally translate, but it can end up in: "moderation (whatever is in measure) is the best". In the sometimes heated debate, some argued: if something is always "moderated", we speak of something mediocre - metrion - μέτριον (in one or the other way). So, how a "mediocre" thing can be "the best"?! Others claim that the moderation (the measure - metron) has to do with the analogy (the proportion) in the work of music in question. For example, a Lied cannot be relentlessly long and its parts have to follow a measured form. A sonata form movement cannot have extensive themes, a huge recapitulation etc.
However, how do we have to perceive some of the gargantuan works in Classical Music, which, at the same time, are considered as "monumental" ones (e.g. Wagner's works, Bruckner and Mahler's Symphonies, Beethoven's Late String Quartets, Schubert's Late Piano Sonatas and String Quartets and so on)? Is there always "moderation" (measure) in them or they constitute the proof of the power of excessive and unlimited passion, vision, talent and some more..?
If you deem the issue might be of any interest to you, I would love to see your views.
Parla
Mon, Apr 1 2013, 6:56PM
#2
RE: Is moderation a virtue in Classical Music?
'Rules' in anything, are laid down because they represent some form of sense and value. But to 'move on' in any form these rules will need to he broken at times. Understand the reason and value of these rules before you break them. Most composers of value's early works will sound similar to those they respect and admire and follow their rules. They then find their own voice and their later works no longer need to prove anything, they can make their own rules yet their own rules will owe something to the rules they value. Moderation can be good or bad in itself. The artist must chose when he needs to apply moderation for the sake of the work and chose when he needs to be more free. Good and bad are all that matter in a work. A work can be bad because the composer should have used more moderation or bad because the composer used too much moderation. A bad work will never be good because the moderation used was correct. Moderation in a bad work is never letting the public see it, or hear it.
Mon, Apr 1 2013, 7:03PM
#3
RE: Is moderation a virtue in Classical Music?
Moderation is not a virtue on a web forum - Dr Brodsky.
Mon, Apr 1 2013, 7:36PM
#4
RE: Is moderation a virtue in Classical Music?
Steady on, Parla. Even Jane might have to admit that you're capable of starting a perfectly sensible discussion!
Mon, Apr 1 2013, 10:43PM
#5
RE: Is moderation a virtue in Classical Music?
I had started a reply but a second look at the question led to a pause...
I really don't see there being any virtues in classical music, but if I had to cobble one together I would only ask that every work is, in itself, authentic to the wishes of the composer and that any performance is authentic in that it is more than a run through.
In broad terms I am with Sidney in the thought that moderation is neutral - it can either be a strength or a weakness. I am pretty sure that avoiding excess can in itself be a sound aesthetic choice and it can also be a route towards something uninteresting. The examples given by Parla seem to all relate to expansive muscial structures and lengths of time. I have never had a problem with music like this - it may require more time to comes to terms with, but the key thing (to me at least) is the fact that we as listeners have to adjust to the work itself. I would never castigate Bruckner for not being as concise as Mozart (to make a simplistic case). Bruckner made his choices (or at least his editors did!) and it is my responsibility to listen to the music on his terms, so to speak. If I can't the problem is mutual not exclusively Bruckner's.
Recently we debated Mahler 6 and the issue of the orchestration being too heavy, too noisy. It could be argued that Mahler could have been more moderate in his choices. But I think that is completely missing the point. Mahler's choices are his and are deliberate - surely what he was trying to communicate led him to make the choices he made? The 'noise' is an intended effect to illicite a response from the listener (musician or audience). You can say it is not effective or that it is, but only in terms of the work itself. To compare the work of one composer to a suggested norm is a game of diminishing returns. I guess it all depends whether you start from a exclusive or inclusive position.
Mon, Apr 1 2013, 11:01PM
#6
RE: Is moderation a virtue in Classical Music?
Mahler's 6th benefits from a conductor that knows how to use moderation , one such as Haitink, one that doesn't fell the need to use a sledgehammer to crack a nut. Over a conductor such as Bernstein who has never used moderation in his life. Mahler's 6th is a symphony that benefits from being played as a symphony, it is not an excuse to use special effects, emotive grunts and over sentimental indulgence. Though these may get you a gramophone recommendation.
Tue, Apr 2 2013, 12:36AM
#7
RE: Is moderation a virtue in Classical Music?
Mahler's 6th benefits from a conductor that knows how to use moderation , one such as Haitink, one that doesn't fell the need to use a sledgehammer to crack a nut. Over a conductor such as Bernstein who has never used moderation in his life. Mahler's 6th is a symphony that benefits from being played as a symphony, it is not an excuse to use special effects, emotive grunts and over sentimental indulgence. Though these may get you a gramophone recommendation.
I would actually say the key element is the authenticity of the approach. For me Haitink presents an authentic view of a symphony like Mahler 6, but so does Bernstein. They happen to be very different, as for example two great actors interpreting Shakespeare. I have seen quite a few Hamlets in my time and the two that most stick out in my mind are two at opposite ends of the spectrum - Mark Rylance and Simon Russell Beale. Very different ideas of Hamlet and yet equally valid within their own distinct situations. Rylance's was not a performance of moderation; the exact opposite in fact, but me at least thoroughly convincing. Beale was another world of ideas and a different Hamlet. But I digress from the issue...
Tue, Apr 2 2013, 8:27AM
#8
RE: Is moderation a virtue in Classical Music?
I'm so grateful for your interesting responses so far.
To give you some more hints and tips of what I'm trying to say and where I'm up to, please kindly note the following:
I'm not interested in the role of measure (or moderation) in terms of what the composer "is trying to convey with the composition in question" but rather what is actually found in the composition (even beyond the composer's conscious efforts). For example, is the huge slow movement of the "Hammerklavier" Piano Sonata by Beethoven a piece governed by a sense of measure or the composer had been carried away...?
The issue of "moderation" has nothing to do with pre-defined music as "good or bad", but rather whether in any well-established work of Classical Music we may trace a sense of "measure" or not.
In this way, moderation cannot be "neutral"; it is either there (in the successful, beautiful, sublime etc. work of music) or not (or not necessarily) and, then, why.
I guess that's all for the moment from me.
Thanks again for your inputs.
Parla
Tue, Apr 2 2013, 9:18AM
#9
moderation
I would actually say the key element is the authenticity of the approach. For me Haitink presents an authentic view of a symphony like Mahler 6, but so does Bernstein. They happen to be very different, as for example two great actors interpreting Shakespeare. I have seen quite a few Hamlets in my time and the two that most stick out in my mind are two at opposite ends of the spectrum - Mark Rylance and Simon Russell Beale. Very different ideas of Hamlet and yet equally valid within their own distinct situations. Rylance's was not a performance of moderation; the exact opposite in fact, but me at least thoroughly convincing. Beale was another world of ideas and a different Hamlet. But I digress from the issue...
This works for me in Mahler's 4th symphony. The dry straight forward Maazel and the waltzy Reiner offer two authentic but completely different accounts, both work, both are excellent. But the 6th, uuum, There is more music in the 6th than some would have us believe, but then I even find Abbado too gimmicky in the 6th. And please, the andante third, and it is an andante not an adagio. Give be that stick, yes the baton, out of the way where's the podium, yes the rostrum, right pay attention you lot and no talking. one, two, three....
Tue, Apr 2 2013, 9:45AM
#10
RE: Is moderation a virtue in Classical Music?
I'm not interested in the role of measure (or moderation) in terms of what the composer "is trying to convey with the composition in question" but rather what is actually found in the composition (even beyond the composer's conscious efforts). For example, is the huge slow movement of the "Hammerklavier" Piano Sonata by Beethoven a piece governed by a sense of measure or the composer had been carried away...?
Parla
When the audience starts nodding off the piece is too long. Beethoven manages it at the end of his 9th symphony after an hour. Webern usually gets there in about 10 seconds.
Tue, Apr 2 2013, 10:45AM
#11
RE: Is moderation a virtue in Classical Music?
Fascinating subject for a thread, Parla, even (or perhaps because) it is ultimately unanswerable!
I suppose the original quotation 'moderation in all thing' is from Aristotle: more recently we have the equally terse 'Less is more'.
But how to apply this to works of art? Like others, I think it's useless comparing Mahler symphonies with Beethoven quartets. And yet even here there is something: a diet of just Mahler symphonies could in no way be described as moderation. After even one Mahler symphony I yearn for a Beethoven quartet. To this extent moderation applies to the balance of music we listen to, no less than the individual works themselves.
As Naupilus writes, it is not just about size of the works, but has to do with proportion and proportionate responses.
Picking up on Parla's Wagner challenge, obviously The Ring is enormously long, but is it lacking in moderation? I would argue not. Throughout the 15h hours of music drama, Wagner unerringly weighs the musical response to the dramatic, or psychological, mood of the moment. Virtually nowhere does the listener feel that the music exceeds or underplays the expectation of the text, and in a good production all is in proportion.
In comparison, I think the problem with Wagners 'problem-opera', Tannhauser, is exactly that the musical treatment sometimes seems out of proportion to the situation.
Concerning Beethoven's late works, and considering first your direct question, Parla, concerning the slow movement of the Hammerklavier Sonata, it has never seemed to me that the slow movement is out of proportion to the rest of the sonata. The massive first movement is its perfect counterpart, and so too the incredible last movement with its double fugues. For me a perfect example of how big can be moderate!
If there is a great work of Beethoven's that invites a question mark, it is the String Quartet Op.130. All the music is wonderful, of course, but the last movement seems to me out of proportion, whether it is the (superb) Grosse Fuge or the (too?) simple alternative finale.
Back to Mahler for a moment. If I had to select a work to which moderation has been thrown out, it would not be any of the symphonies but the Kindertotenlieder, where the glorification of the already mawkish poems goes beyond any reasonable balance (IMO).
Much more could be written, and no doubt will be!
Chris
PS: Parla, yes, here in the 'Cradle of Democracy' (!) Easter will be celebrated on 5th May: just about as late as it can get.
Tue, Apr 2 2013, 6:34PM
#12
RE: Is moderation a virtue in Classical Music?
Chris, I believe my question is not at all "unanswerable". With your analytical and detailed post, you gave a very telling answer. Yes, there is moderation in the great works of Classical Music, despite their various obvious "excess" in one or the other aspect(s) of them.
Whenever excess goes beyond measure (metron) and prevails, the best (to ariston) is gone, in one or the other way.
I also believe that the slow movement of the "Hammerklavier" is within moderation and Beethoven never allowed himself to be carried away. However, performers might easily be...unfortunately.
I fully agree with you on Wagner. He managed to "justify" the excess in length of his works with his "easily" followed leitmotives, a brilliant and quite meaningful orchestration, musical singing and a telling narrative, all within a linkage of measure and proportion.
In sum, I feel that, if the composer wishes to go quite far in one or two aspects of his work, he should exercise a sort of measure for all the others, so that the the whole product of his efforts is going to be within proportion and perception. In other words, greatness in Music (and in Art, in general) is an act of responsibility and intelligence, not only of passion, vision, talent etc.
Parla
P.S.: Chris, I was almost sure about your location. This "περιμένετε" was very telling. I don't know how long you have been there or where exactly you are based in the "cradle of democracy" (why the exclamation mark, by the way?), but you may have noticed that the people there might be wonderful, in some aspects of human behaviour, but they lack moderation!
Tue, Apr 2 2013, 7:15PM
#13
RE: Is moderation a virtue in Classical Music?
Parla,
You answered your question about the exclamation mark yourself, at the very end of your PS. Indeed, you are right!
In relation to the main topic, how do you feel about Op.130, or more particularly, its last movement?
Chris
Wed, Apr 3 2013, 12:29PM
#14
RE: Is moderation a virtue in Classical Music?
Beethoven's Op. 130 is the most "problematic" of the Late String Quartets in terms of proportion, measure and perspective, but, grosso modo, equally rewarding as all the other late ones. I don't find any movement particularly "overblown" or out of control. However, the individual movements seem to be less connected compared to the other ones. The Grosse Fugue is "Grosse" indeed; an unusually beyond reasonable proportion and measure movement, but not in every aspect of the composition. However, its complexity, length and form are moving even beyond the limits of measure. On the other hand, the idiomatic writing and the narrative are exemplary, keeping the work within reason and balance.
The newer Finale is more familiar as for the length and its development, but again there are problems of balance and narrative, even of its form as such. However, overall, Beethoven's genius wins over certain excess and singularities of the work and its movements.
Parla
P.S.: Yes, I tried to "help you out" in your answer. How long have you been there or do you plan to stay? I have some very vivid memories of the enormous and singular mediterranean beauty of this country and of some unusual qualities of its people...after all.
Wed, Apr 3 2013, 12:41PM
#15
RE: Is moderation a virtue in Classical Music?
If you mean weird, just say it.
I'd say it depends on what the composer is trying to convey with the composition in quetstion. A key concept here is the dichotomy between the beautiful and the sublime, as we find it in Burke, Seidl and Kant. Some works are meant to be pleasant, harmonious and balanced, while other works are written to overwhelm, terrify or overpower. There is no one answer to the question as to wheter music ought to be moderated or not. A Mozart divertemento strives for a harmonious relationship between the artistic object and the listener, the Berlioz Te Deum is a violent assault on the listener's cognitive capacities.
After all, Goethe did not only write: "In der Beschränkung zeigt sich der Meister", but also "Dass Du nicht enden kannst, das macht Dich groß".
aquila non captat muscas