Jazz is the new classical.

Tagalie, I wish there was a way for us mere "plebs" to get on with discussing music, but Mr. Self-Regard and Mr. Sarcastic have effectively killed-off this forum already. Contributions have declined hugely, once familiar names appear no more and I, like you, have decided that I have had enough. Unless some action is taken to change the nature and tone of this forum, this is my last contribution.

Hi Tagalie, and Arbutus!

Please don't go away! Surely you are made of sterner stuff than this!  The area between 'too controversial' and 'too mundane' is sure to be broached from time to time in any forum, isn't it?  As in another sport, a few wild tackles and an occasional red card are part of the game!

As far as the content of the forum is concerned, take out the contributions of your "Mr Self-Regard and Mr Sarcastic" together with your (our) responses to them, and there has not been a surfeit of interesting discussions, has there?  An honourable exception for your (Arbutus) thread on major living composers (about which I'm still thinking a lot). And Eliza too!

Getting the balance right between too-provocative and too bland is not automatic and surely will lead to some 'explosions'. I suggest we try not to throw the babies out with the bathwater!

Chris

I don't see why my statement, in the context of the thread as it has been developed, is more offensive (leaving aside the other "attributes) than anyother's.

First of all, the initiator of the thread started with a title that could deserve all the adjectives attributed to mine, particularly in a Classical Forum. Then, in hs very short introductory text, he even say "goodbye" to Classical Music.

After my initial remarks, he modified a bit his position, claiming the (wrong) argument that there is nothing complex about Classical Music and, that "occasionally, it does not hurt to venture into new ways and new music", which is true, provided you know where each "music" stands and what each one is.

Then, 78RPM, being more conciliatory, he tried to be kind enough, but, in his second and third paragraphs, he said exactly what I could have said. I fully subscribe to these two paragraphs. Graham J went even further calling different very unpleasant names for Jazz, Pop, etc. I didn't see any reaction to all that.

So, to make myself a bit clearer: Anyone can do whatever he likes, but it is much more useful if he/she knows where certain genres of Art stand. I came to Classical from Pop and Jazz and I still listen to some new music from both genres. However, as 78 and Graham said, I cannot have the same relationship with Bach and Ornette Coleman. I still have and, occasionally, listen to his very ambitious endeavour "Skies of America", but I can never possibly claim it has anything to do with even middle of the road Classical works. I'm not sure whether Arbutus claims that when he listens to different "kinds" of music, he considers all of them of the same quality, validity and interest. If for him Bach and Coleman are equally great, then, he should explain us why (always in musical terms, not in personal ones). Otherwise, if he recognises the difference of scale in interest, importance, compositional writing and many more in the appreciation of Bach and Coleman, we are not far apart at all.

Finally, the terms of reference of this forum allow any member to express himself (under the rules of the House) and the others to respond on the substance. In this thread, I did only that (as I always do). Ian did so! Some of our usual...pals prefer to resort to deal with the poster, trying to denigrate what he is claiming but without dealing with the issue in question.

Anyway, the call is yours.

Parla

Keep dealing with the poster, Tagalie? Well, nothing surprising or new.

Anything on the substance of this thread? Forget me, anyway. Do you have anything to say to 78 and Graham (I have already subscribed to what they had stated)?..

Parla

I have been summoned to appear, against my better judgement, before m'lud to explain myself, so here is my position. It was the comment "You cannot have them both", from Parla that infuriated me. The suggestion seemed clear that we have to choose whether we will listen to classical music or some other lesser form. We can't do both. This was a response to a series of posts from Ian Paternoster which were, I would have to say, poorly argued: Goodbye to classical music at the start, then maybe sometimes a bit later and then the mention of Nigel Kennedy (equally bad in either genre). 

                 In answer to Parla's question, I do "consider [Bach and Ornette Coleman to be ]of the same quality, validity and interest", but I recognize that the intentions of Bach and of Coleman are very different. The intricate and elevated spiritual concerns of Bach are not what Coleman was trying to achieve and the unfettered harmelodics of Coleman were well beyond the imagination of Bach. The quiddity of one delivers an essence which is lacking in the other, so I need both to reflect and connect with the multifaceted humanity which is common to us all .

If everyone treats each other with mutual respect then more people will contribute to the forum without the fear of being shot to pieces and mocked for their comments. So break it up now or we'll go to the headmasters office.
It is an interesting discussion. We all agree (as this is a classical forum) that classical music is infinitely more rewarding than other genres. The thing is that people who have never got into classical music do not know what they are supposed to be looking for in it. My brother who is 38 recently found himself (by mistake!) at a Katherine Jenkins concert in some plush castle grounds in the north of England. He told me after that I would have enjoyed it more as I was "into that classical stuff", to which I tried to explain to him that, despite the orchestra and soprano, it was not what I would call classical.
He said the problem was that no one wanted to jump about or dance, you had to keep quiet during the music and after every piece there was just polite clapping and no shouting and screaming, therefore no atmosphere.
I found his reaction to the experience fascinating. The way we experience, react to and appreciate classical is so different to jazz, pop, rock, blues, dance, hip hop, etc, that it is difficult for the uninitiated to know what to do with it! You have to know to penetrate deeper to reap the rewards, as opposed to other genres which on the surface are more viscerally exciting and obviously appealing.