Key and Character

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Hugh Jarsse
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RE: Couldn't resist this quote,

That's an adieu in C though, not in E flat. IT DOESN'T MAKE ANY DIFFERENCE.

c hris johnson
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RE: Couldn't resist this quote,

I know what your problem is Hugh.  You desperately want to get out but can't find the key. Clue: not all the keys are the same!

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Hugh Jarsse
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RE: Couldn't resist this quote,

Relatively speaking they are as they all do the same job, but as Eliza has already pointed out Chris, it is the combinations that are important, and I've got you number.

BazzaRiley
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RE: Couldn't resist this quote,

c hris johnson wrote:
I know what your problem is Hugh.  You desperately want to get out but can't find the key.

LOL. He certainly needs to get out more, that's a fact.

Hugh Jarsse
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RE: Couldn't resist this quote,

Manchester United v Fulham looks like the pick of the 4th round ties Baz.

Eliza Frost
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RE: Couldn't resist this quote,

Chris

Rosemary sonatas? Freudian slip? (Ah, Rosemary! The one who got away........)

Yes, I know the Rosary sonatas - not well, but I do have a couple of versions. I have been meaning to give them a proper listen for years, but have never really got round to it.  

I didn't know about the Bach transpositions. Very interesting.......

Looking forwards to your suggestions on the keyboard. (Not that this is any evidence one way or the other, but I always feel different when I play in a flat key.........Some people think that because pianists spend a lot of time in C major (since that is where you spend your formative years), C becomes a kind of reference point for all other keys. When you play in, say, Bb major, the key seems warm and deep because your mind treats it as a kind of modulation from C, even though you haven't played in C that particular day or during that piece. If modulations work withing a piece - something even Hugh would agree with - it must be because we remember the previous keys in some manner. Could this act of memory reach further back to the days and weeks before - to other experiences and other pieces?.............

 

c hris johnson
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RE: Couldn't resist this quote,

Oh yes Eliza, you're right!!! But unfortunately I don't remember a Rosemary! I don't remember much about Rosaries either, though we had these in my schooldays.

More will have to wait until after the football!

Chris

 

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BazzaRiley
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RE: Couldn't resist this quote,

Hugh Jarsse wrote:
Manchester United v Fulham looks like the pick of the 4th round ties Baz.

I think West Ham v Blackpool will be a better game.

JKH
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RE: Couldn't resist this quote,

BazzaRiley wrote:

c hris johnson wrote:
I know what your problem is Hugh.  You desperately want to get out but can't find the key.

LOL. He certainly needs to get out more, that's a fact.

Sadly, Baz, that seems to be a remote possibility now the institution where Doc B resides has replaced all the old locks with higher-security versions.

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Hugh Jarsse
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RE: Couldn't resist this quote,

BazzaRiley wrote:

I think West Ham v Blackpool will be a better game.

 

Well give it a few more months and you can probably look forward to that fixture home and away in the Championship next season.

c hris johnson
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Theory of Key and Character

Theory of Key and Character

OK, As promised (threatened), here is my proposal, largely, except for the end, a summary of what I have already argued, hopefully in a less piecemeal fashion than before. I apologise for the formal style, and the omission of the (obvious) “in my opinion’, where the matters are not simply factual.

 

1.There is a logical scientific explanation for chords that sound harmonious to human ears, based on simple ratios.  Thus, to the human ear a perfect fifth sounds 1.5 times the frequency of its base note (e.g. G above C), and a major third 1.25 times. Left alone to tune E or G having been given ‘C’, sensitive listeners will accurately select  these frequencies.  There is nothing mystical about this: it is scientifically rational.

2. For reasons which need not be discussed again equal temperament tuning fudges all the intervals so that the equal temperament fifth and major thirds become 1.260 and 1.498 respectively times the base frequency. Many listeners can hear this difference. 

3. Except for a hypothetical listener who has lived only to hear music played on a piano (or equivalent) tuned to equal temperament, all of us have the regular opportunity to hear natural harmonics (I refer you back to the discussion on instrument sonority). This reinforces our natural inclination for ‘harmonious’ sound.

4. That when we hear music tuned to equal temperament it does not sound out of tune to our ears relies on the assumption that the known deviations from natural tuning are considered too small to irritate. That’s to say, we do not so much hear in equal temperament as tolerate it.

5.The most important distinction between different keys is that of pitch. Just because this is obvious it should not be overlooked. You cannot change key without changing the tonic. Note also that with non-equal temperament tuning even the tonic itself is different for say D sharp compared with E flat. Just because there is no simple rational way to establish the extent to which the pitch contributes to the character of a particular key is not sufficient reason for assuming it is irrelevant to that character.

6. A second contributor to the character of individual keys, when listening to vocal or non-keyboard instrumental music, arises because of different tuning possibilities of instruments and/or voices as discussed before. This contribution to key character would seem not to exist for solely equal temperament performances, notably solo piano. So how to justify claims based on more than the pitch?

From here on we move to more speculative waters and much of what follows is based on my own experience, hence the change of style. 

7. I take my much loved Art of Fugue as an example.  The whole work is firmly rooted in D minor. I’ve noticed that if I find myself humming or singing the fugue subject and then check at the keyboard, almost invariably I’m singing in D minor. On the other hand if I deliberately try to test whether I can correctly give the D minor, usually I cannot. What I cannot do consciously is there in my unconscious. Of course, I know the work very well. I also know ‘the’ Dvorak humoresque well enough, and Schubert;’s third Impromptu, but I’m pretty sure I would never hum or sing either piece in its correct G flat major (just after listening to it  on a record doesn’t count!). Earlier in the thread I suggested that no-one without perfect pitch would either (see Note 1, below). I offered this challenge before. Do try it. Sing or hum or whistle any music you know.  Do you ever find yourself singing in F sharp, or B major or G flat. I doubt it.  Why? Because these ‘home’ keys (and only these) are deeply engrained in our unconscious along with ‘natural’ tuning.  I’m suggesting that it is not coincidence that the keys in which we naturally sing or hum (or whatever) are those which can be tolerated in natural, but non-equal-temperament tuning, and, thus, within these keys we hear them in that way, regardless of whether the music is actually being played in equal temperament or not. Remember, the secret of the ‘success’ of equal temperament tuning is that the errors in harmony are too small to be obvious. (Beyond those ‘home’ keys, the discrepancies become too great and that interaction will break down). (See also Note 2 below).

To conclude, I suggest that these factors, involving both performers and listeners are sufficient to justify the suggestion that different keys have different characteristics, though by no means necessarily to the extent proposed by some of the more exuberant protagonists.

 

Chris

Again, apologies for the length.

 

 

Note 1. We urgently need a contributor with perfect pitch.

Note 2. In Western music, C major is universally regarded as ‘home’.  Why, is an interesting question but is beyond the scope of this discussion. 

 

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Hugh Jarsse
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RE: Theory of Key and Character

'Key and character' is like 'man and god'. If you want to fool yourself into believing it exists, then fine, just don't go out looking for proof. And certainly don't tell your friends.

parla
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RE: Key and Character

Chris, thanks again for your thorough investigation and analysis. I trust forum members start realising the difference that exists, if not in the "character" at least in the "Properties" of them.

To answer your question about the "home" key of C major, I have to tell you what I was taught by our music professors: The C major is the First major key and the one with the seven natural notes. Therefore, it is the "reference" and the "home" key, where all the others are developed. Likewise, its relative minor (a minor) is the "first" and "home" key for the minor keys.

Sir Hugh, there is "proof" about the keys and "their characteristics" (if not character). We don't have to believe it. We simply have to...listen not to simply...hear it.

Parla

BazzaRiley
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RE: Couldn't resist this quote,

Hugh Jarsse wrote:
Well give it a few more months and you can probably look forward to that fixture home and away in the Championship next season.

You spoilt that with the "probably".

Hugh Jarsse
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RE: Couldn't resist this quote,

I was trying to be nice to our east London cousins, in an east versus west sort of way.. arrh the west, centuries of academic education, wealth creation, manners and culture. And the east, violence, crime and poverty. Blue is the colour....