Key and Character
Mon, Jan 7 2013, 9:07PM
#2
RE: Key and Character
Eliza, I just came across this in the Wikipedia entry for Mozart's Sinfonia concertante:
"The solo viola part is written in D major instead of E flat major, and the instrument tuned a semitone sharper (scordatura technique), to give a more brilliant tone. This technique is uncommon when performed on the modern viola and is used mostly in performance on original instruments."
It would be really interesting to know which recordings follow Mozart's instructions.
Chris
Mon, Jan 7 2013, 10:19PM
#3
RE: Key and Character
Chris,
I've got several recordings of K364 (probably not as many as Parla......) - at least one of which is a period one. I'll have a look in my Mozart section and see if there is anything in the notes about this tuning business.
I am currently digesting your earlier (valiant) response. Not sure I fully understand it all yet, but will get back when I've thought some more.......
Eliza
Mon, Jan 7 2013, 10:27PM
#4
RE: Key and Character
Aha! Yes, I've found one tuned up as Mozart instructed: Rachel Podger and Pavlo Beznosiuk (viola) with the OAE, both playing strads. In the notes Podger says, "Right from the start there is a peculiarity about the sound of the viola. It is tuned a semitone higher than normal, sounding more brilliant and easing the double stopping for the player."
Will have a listen later one and compare it to others. I have the Perlman/Zuckerman classic, but not sure if they tuned up the viola........
Tue, Jan 8 2013, 4:33PM
#5
RE: Key and Character
Well spotted Eliza. Interesting if you hear any difference, though there will be quite a few other differences between those two recordings. I notice Harnoncourt has recorded the work (with Gidon Cremer & Kim Kashkashian): he's the sort of man who would take Mozart's instruction seriously. I looked up reviews of that and the Podger version in Gramophone, but not a word about this is to be found.
Chris
Wed, Jan 9 2013, 12:40AM
#6
RE: Key and Character
Chris, the recording of Rachel Podger and Pavlo Beznosiuk is on Channel, in a striking SACD format, with the Orchestra of the Age of Enlightenment. It is a magnificent recording, where you can enjoy all the possible details of this glorious work. Don't rely on any review; just get it. You'll love it madly. It contains also two Violin Concertos by Haydn.
Parla
Wed, Jan 16 2013, 11:55PM
#7
RE: Key and Character RE: Key and Character
Greetings from Switzerland!
I've been reading on this forum for about a month now and I'm enjoying it very much. Many intersting topics!
This topic has particularly intersted me because I always wondered what the fuzz about these key characteristics is all about.
PS: Whilst researching the question of tuning on the Internet I came across reviews of what sounds like an interesting book: "How Equal Temperament Ruined Harmony by Ross W Duffin " I haven't read it but from the reviews I think it might make interesting and relevant reading. Anyone read it?
After reading Chris' comment I looked up the book on Amazon and ordered it. I don't think it would have satisfied you regarding the key characteristics. However, it still was a very interesting read (especially for me because I didn't know a whole lot about Equal Temperament). The author uses many historical quotes to state that ET was in fact not standard until the early 20th century (as opposed to many believes that it was used throughout the 19th century). Furthermore, he says that we should still consider other temperaments today and he's very much trying to convince the reader of the advantages of 1/4 Comma Meantone tuning.
Anyway, coming back to key characteristics. In the book there are two quatations regarding this topic:
"An equal temperament, however, cannot subsist, or else we would no longer have any key characteristics, and one could just as well compose a nocturne in A minor, and a military blare in Ab major." Pietro Lichtenthal (1826)
"The opinion has been very generally entertained among musicians that there is a peculiar character belonging to each of the keys. [...] If an instrument be tuned in the equal temperament - which is the more commong and popular - every key is tempered precisely alike, and consequently all peculiarity from the cause assigned will disappear." H.W. Poole (1850)
I guess this is somewhat coherent with some of the opinions of the writers in previous posts. So what can I add to the discussion?
Towards the end of the book the author recommends a listen to this guy: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lzsEdK48CDY
It's the Mozart KV397 in three different tunings. To me that was an eye opener! It was the first time I hear something else than ET and the difference in the character (to me) is enormeous. I can feel the sorrow and melancholy of the D minor in meantone tuning and especially Prelleur Tuning much more than in ET.
The title of the book is "How equal temperament ruined harmony" .. although the author is convinced of this, to me (and my equal tempered ear) that sounds too harsh for the moment. But I'm now convinced that equal Temperament ruined key characteristics!
Anyway, I hope I added something to this discussion. I'm looking forward to your thoughts about the KV397 and maybe someone has more examples like that?
Best regards
Thomas
Thu, Jan 17 2013, 10:27PM
#8
RE: Key and Character RE: Key and Character
Thomas, welcome to the Forum and thank you for the fascinating post.
I'm still rather tempted by the Duffin book but have been getting increasingly bogged down in the explanations of the different unequal temperament tunings. So the fine example you gave is fascinating, and more enlightening than thousands of words! And it's Mozart's favourite D minor too! I completely agree with you, the difference is obvious even (perhaps especially) from the opening arpeggios.
As far as I understand it, the quarter comma meantone is based on perfect (or 'just') major thirds, with fifths slightly compromised, and Pelleur is the other way round, but I'm still trying to get to grips with this. (The Wikipedia articles on quarter comma meantone include aural examples of the differences between intervals in different tunings, but you need a good sense of pitch to hear the differences in this way: it's much more obvious in the musical example).
Looking through the web under Pellleur temperament brings up other performances including sonatas by Scarlatti and Beethoven, performed in various mean temperament tunings. I'm going to try to find some of these.
It seems obvious to me that we hear in just temperament and when we hear music played that way it sounds better (provided it does not stray too far from the 'home' keys), and that equal temperament is a fudge that fools us most of the time that it is 'in tune' whilst of course allowing the use of so many keys that were closed before. It may not have ruined everything as Duffin claims, but there are surely 'swings and roundabouts'.
In the meantime I'll remind Brumas (who started this thread) through his ""Listening Project, thread about the example you gave. It might make an interesting 'listening project'. - Different from anything we've had so far.
Chris
Sat, Jan 19 2013, 9:54PM
#9
RE: Key and Character RE: Key and Character
I was rereading some chapters of the book just because I was still not quite sure about this concept of meantones. Duffin is actually "promoting" the sixth comma meantone temperament (by Pier Francesco Tosi). It looks like this is a middle way between ET and just intonation. And in the youtube link we hear quarter comma meantone, which features as you correctly said pure major thirds.
One interesting aspect of these octave divisions in the meantone temperament is that G# is no longer the same as an Ab .. The octave is divided into 55 commas (in the sixth comma meantone temperament). 5 hole tones contain 5x9 commas, two semitones contain 2x5 (10+45=55). This means the G# is on the 4th comma and the Ab on the 5th comma. So Ab is slighty higher in intonation than G# ... And for a while they actually produced and played on pianos with split keys ... all very fascinating! And I know I'm really bad in explaining, but I guess if you're really intersted in this, the Duffin book is written quite well. At least I feel like I somewhat understand it now.
Good idea about posting it to the listening thread. I will surely be participating ;-)
Thomas
Sun, Jan 20 2013, 3:21PM
#10
RE: Key and Character
I still can't believe you are trying to put together a case for key and character. It's like the Spanish inquisition revisited. Equal temperament or no equal temperament, it doesn't matter. You'll be burning witches next.
Sun, Jan 20 2013, 7:04PM
#11
RE: Key and Character RE: Key and Character
Hi Thomas,
You are doing a good job in convincing me that I should read the Duffin book. I do find it difficult getting round the differences between these different tunings. It's all very well when one stays in the 'home' key, but it's pretty difficult trying to work out the consequences of each approach for even simple changes of key.
I found a (relatively) comprehensible account of tuning principles (with audio examples) at:
http://www.pyxidium.u-net.com/Acoustics/MusicMaths/MusicMaths.html
Glad you approve of including your example in the 'listening' post. Of course you must participate, and really it is you who should be the 'lead' participant!
All the best,
Chris
Mon, Jan 21 2013, 6:09PM
#12
RE: Key and Character
The question about key and character is pretty much solved; at least for me - in the seven pages of this thread, I've not come across anything to convice me that there is any relationship between the key of a piece and it's emotional character.
However, the question about equal temperament is of course a different one altogether. ET is allways a compromise. It allows us to play more or less in tune in all keys without retuning, yet we lose the natural harmony that is inherent in nature itself. Harmony is not just some system we made up, it's a natural phenomenon. That's why I love to listen to music that adheres to harmony's pythagorean principles such as the Mugam-tradition of Azerbaidjan or Persian Dastgah.
In this whole impasse between actual harmony and a compromise in exchange for modulatory freedom, I think the Haas piece I suggested for the Listening Project is particularly interesting. Also looking forward to hearing the different versions of the Mozart piece!
Mon, Jan 21 2013, 7:38PM
#13
RE: Key and Character
Yes, you may as well say d is a sadder note than e. It makes just as little sense. Choose a sound, any sound, move it up a bit higher, in fact stop wherever you want and call it c. C doesn't really exist so move it up a bit higher and call that c. Put c anywhere you want, the system still works exactly the same.
Tue, Jan 22 2013, 1:35AM
#14
RE: Key and Character
I don't know what else do you actually want, Brumas to be convinced. In these pages, me and Chris at least gave specific examples that well-known works cannot sound the same and have the same musical or sound effects in other keys but the ones that they have been written.
Do you still suggest that The Art of Fugue can sound the same and have the same "emotional" effect in g minor? Can Beethoven's Fifth possibly sound the same in e minor? Can the Aria of "La Fille du Regiment" (Pour mon Ame) ever be the same, if the high Cs with a transposition move to high Gs? What will happen to the Piano part in Schubert's "Trout" Quintet, if it is performed a third lower? And some more already mentioned.
If we may agree that a specific well-known work cannot sound the same (when a high C moves to a lower G, this is a different resolution to a different question), then, we don't have necessarily to specify the character of each key. We simply identify that each key has different "qualities", functions etc. (that's why other keys are used extremely often, like C major or d minor, or too rarely, like c sharp major or e flat minor).
Parla
Tue, Jan 22 2013, 10:22AM
#15
RE: Key and Character
They won't sound the same, they'll sound slightly higher or slightly lower, a difference you may or may not notice. But their character won't change. I remember a few years ago Philips releasing a disc that had been engineered at the wrong pitch, a certain 8th symphony, a few noticed most did not. It simply sounded slightly higher because we were used to hearing it slightly lower.
Parla, many thanks for your kind comments!
As far as C major is concerned, of course you are right, but that was not quite what I meant. At the trivial level why was the home key (our C major) not named with the first letter 'A' and so on. Perhaps it all started before we had major and minor and with what has now become A minor. That would also explain why we tune to A and not to C. But I know nothing about the origins of this.
But more significant is the persistence of C as the 'home' tonic through generations and throughout Western culture. A home key such as you describe could have started on any pitch, but it hasn't. It must be deeply rooted in our unconscious because it seems to have changed rather little over the centuries. Again, I'm largely ignorant of the history of this.
Chris
Chris A.Gnostic