"La Boheme": An incontestable masterpiece?
Thu, Feb 9 2012, 1:15PM
#2
RE: "La Boheme": An incontestable masterpiece?
And it opens on an off-beat - difficult for the conductor.
Thu, Feb 9 2012, 2:48PM
#3
RE: "La Boheme": An incontestable masterpiece?
So, you all like it! Why not, after all, even l' Opera comique could have some fine moments, after all.
Tagalie, I never spent a moment on any pub in my lifetime and those you call "mates" as much more than that. I guess the name Kyoko Tabe doesn't ring a bell to you, but she is a household name of distinction somewhere far...east. I trust the name Omobello is double dutch to you, but she is a professional Opera singer (with some accolades from French venues), etc.(And bear in mind, what arrives in the recording venues is only a small fraction of what is going on on the Globe).
Finally, can you elaborate on the elements of the "superb scene-setting" and which are the exact foundations of the important musical themes of this first half of the first Act?
Parla
Thu, Feb 9 2012, 9:21PM
#4
RE: "La Boheme": An incontestable masterpiece?
The rest of us have mates, Parla circulates with the gods. I'm sure most of us have friends who've distinguished themselves in various fields but we'd have to be incurable snobs go around bleating about it.
Over a year ago two posters identified you as a wind-up artist and refused to dialogue with you. At the time I thought differently but now I'm coming to the same conclusion. However, just in case you really are having difficulty figuring out what the early pages are all about and how they link forward, let me help you with a few examples:
1) The very opening is, of course, the opening of the 4th act. We've come full circle. Get it?
2) Rodolfo enters in act 3 to a variation of the music for Nei cieli bigi in act 1, a sad attempt to play the carefree student of yesterday before he breaks down and admits to the problems between him and Mimi.
3) In act 4, just before Mimi says Sono andati? and we enter into the heartbreaking finale the orchestra softly plays one the themes from act 1, one we heard accompanying the parrot story and elsewhere. It is a nostalgic look back to happier times.
Just a few examples. Listen to the work again, you may learn something, but I doubt it.
Thu, Feb 9 2012, 10:40PM
#5
RE
Over a year ago two posters identified you as a wind-up artist and refused to dialogue with you. At the time I thought differently but now I'm coming to the same conclusion.
I'm amazed it's taken you that long.
Act 1 of Boheme is one of the greatest openings in opera, period. The charlatan Parla is merely trying to provoke a pointless discussion about why the views of his friends (the musicians and professors usw) take precedent over any views which we mere mortals might hold.
Yawn...
Thu, Feb 9 2012, 11:22PM
#6
RE: "La Boheme": An incontestable masterpiece?
I was about to send my response to your last post, Tagalie, but CraigM came with the verdict: "one of the greatest openings in opera"! Proof or to further elaborate is not needed. Period.
However, I feel compelled to underline, Tagalie, that the "few examples" you gave me do not prove why and how we have a "superb scene-setting" or which is the "foundation of important musical themes", when the themes are not great or memorable ones, in the first place. What I'm trying to say is that Puccini didn't have to resort to tight musical scores, where every note or accord count; he could spare enough moments to build something very tense and superbly emotional with fewer means and smart moves. The duet O soave fanciulla is developed gradually and intelligently in order to reach the culminating musical and theatrical point of a full of passion unisono (in a high C) sang offstage!
If I may jump to the third Act, there, we have a truly superb musical and theatrical Act, delicately structured mostly in duets (C'e Rodolfo, Marcello. Finalmente! and Donde lietta-Addio sogni d'amor). The last duet leads to a well crafted Quartet (Dunque e proprio finita?) closing the Act in a very meaningful (musically and theatrically) way.
In any case, I never implied that any part of the Opera is either of no use or value. However, I truly believe that the greatness of Puccini and, apparently, of his incontestable masterpiece(s) lies in a very special way he had to use trivial, small, unimportant, insignificant musical or theatrical means with a view to reaching areas of passion and musical culminating points that others had to try in a more tight and integrated way (Verdi, Rossini, Bellini, Donizetti or Mozart, Weber, etc)... And that's equally great!
Parla
Fri, Feb 10 2012, 1:05AM
#7
RE: "La Boheme": An incontestable masterpiece?
However, I feel compelled to underline, Tagalie, that the "few examples" you gave me do not prove why and how we have a "superb scene-setting" or which is the "foundation of important musical themes", when the themes are not great or memorable ones, in the first place. What I'm trying to say is that Puccini didn't have to resort to tight musical scores,
Actually, they do prove it and are memorable - I can remember them anyway and so could Puccini and probably every other opera lover. You wanted examples, I gave them to you and your argument is at a dead end. As usual, as happens in every thread in which you start this garbage, you've been trounced logically re. your initial statement and are trying to shift ground, though not making any sense. Craig has pointed out, and many others (myself even) there are only two possibilities: wind-up artist or not playing with a full deck. Either way, there's no point treating you seriously. I'll leave you to it.
Fri, Feb 10 2012, 9:35AM
#8
RE: "La Boheme": An incontestable masterpiece?
As usual, as happens in every thread in which you start this garbage, you've been trounced logically re. your initial statement and are trying to shift ground, though not making any sense.
I would like to think that Parla could concede that there is some truth in this statement. There are now dozens of examples where a hastily considered comment or judgment is made and challenged, to be followed by protracted self-justification with varying degrees of logic or consistency. I have listed several elsewhere but decided some time ago to refrain from pointless exchanges when new ones like this arise. The frustration that some feel over this, shall we say, idiosyncrasy, is regrettable, especially in the light of Parla's undoubted knowledge, expertise and valued contributions in so may areas. On balance, I personally find his contributions worth the annoying, and seemingly limitless capacity to need to be always in the right about everything.
A nod of acknowledgement to Talalie's point would be a timely and graceful gesture perhaps.
Vic.
Fri, Feb 10 2012, 10:16AM
#9
RE: "La Boheme": An incontestable masterpiece?
I prefer Tosca, Butterfly and Turandot, but Boheme is excellent singers music and has it's great moments.
Fri, Feb 10 2012, 10:29AM
#10
"La Boheme": An incontestable masterpiece?
As usual, as happens in every thread in which you start this garbage, you've been trounced logically re. your initial statement and are trying to shift ground, though not making any sense.
I would like to think that Parla could concede that there is some truth in this statement.........................A nod of acknowledgement to Talalie's point would be a timely and graceful gesture perhaps.
Vic.
A quick internet trawl reveals that the world breath-holding record is 11 min 35 sec. Good luck in your attempt, Vic.
Fri, Feb 10 2012, 11:18AM
#11
RE: "La Boheme": An incontestable masterpiece?
Parla
A warning at this point:
You've used two lifelines already. You've phoned a friend, and you've asked the audience.
Your last option of course is to ask the computer to take away two wrong answers...
Mark
Fri, Feb 10 2012, 5:35PM
#12
RE: "La Boheme": An incontestable masterpiece?
Well, well, well. You deal more with the messenger than the message or because of the message. Anyway, don't shoot the pianist. Sometimes, he may have to play the "wrong" tunes...
Starting with my dear friend Mark. I didn't use any lifeline and I don't have any "last option", since I "don't want to become a millionaire" (at least in this way).
However, using this as a metaphor in this thread, I may say that I "phone a friend" (the tour de table with my friends, associates, etc) and I brought to the table our findings that this Opera is a masterpiece after all (despite some reservations. Thus, the question mark in the title.). Then, the audience responded and with a strong majority claimed the undisputed greatness of "La Boheme". However, at least two members express their reservations. The most interesting and possibly pertinent could be Frank Einstein's "Boheme is excellent singers music" and "has its great moments".
Tagalie, you don't have to resort to unnecessary language (to put it politely) to show that you soundly disagree with me. The fact that I was not convinced that the "few examples" you provided may constitute the clever connection and correlation between the different parts of the Opera but not necessarily the "superb scene-setting" does not mean "my argument is at a dead end". As for the tunes, you may remember them (as I do), but are they actually great themes (superb music)? Memorable in the sense that you feel thrilled to remember them?
In any case, if I can help the situation so that we may converge at a certain point, I can state that I have no problem if you Tagalie (and a good majority of those who so far have participated) believe that La Boheme is an undisputed masterpiece from the outset to the very end. However, you may contemplate the idea that there might be a certain amount of people who love the work, Opera and predominantly Classical Music and happen to believe that the greatness of this work and Puccini in general lie in these unique moments, magically created by the composer, and not that much on the integrity of the total work. Something equally significant (it's not that indifferent to make masses getting nuts with "o mio babino caro", when they may have no idea from which Opera comes or even who is the composer. Let alone what happens with the fate of "Nessun dorma").
So, I fully respect your perception (and I comprehend it to a great extent). I hope you may treat the one I represent, somehow, in the same way.
Best wishes,
Parla
Sat, Feb 11 2012, 12:30AM
#13
RE: "La Boheme":
There are now dozens of examples where a hastily considered comment or judgment is made and challenged, to be followed by protracted self-justification with varying degrees of logic or consistency. I have listed several elsewhere but decided some time ago to refrain from pointless exchanges when new ones like this arise. The frustration that some feel over this, shall we say, idiosyncrasy, is regrettable, especially in the light of Parla's undoubted knowledge, expertise and valued contributions in so may areas. On balance, I personally find his contributions worth the annoying, and seemingly limitless capacity to need to be always in the right about everything.
Vic,
I agree in most respects but I’m beginning to doubt the ‘expertise’. What I see is a ton of random musical information with little notion of how to deal with it.
If you go back to the earlier days of this forum you’ll find I was a Parla defender, mainly on the grounds that, English not being his first language, he might not be coming across clearly in his posts. My mind change stems from the exact point you make: we’ve been through this Parla Song and Dance routine so many times and it’s a bore. Its steps never vary, there’s almost a sonata form about them:
1) Make an insupportable, ill-considered statement.
2) In the face of attacks from other forum members, claim that they have misunderstood what you said, forgive them and say it again using 400 words instead of 10.
3) Produce a series of irrelevant monster posts whose logic, syntax and gist nobody can decipher.
4) By now most of your critics have given up in frustration or boredom. For the benefit of those few remaining, invoke mythical experts and old profs who you claim support your view. And try to change the subject.
5) In the face of insurmountable evidence that the statement made in (1) was indeed ridiculous, claim victory, move on but not before forgiving your assailants for being rude and stupid.
6) Six months later, repeat the statement made in (1)
All this is done with unshakeable arrogance and lack of humour. The grace or wit to admit error is totally absent. Doctor B/Devon Farmer etc. at least try to keep it light.
As you can see from his post above, we're now at stage 5. We have about a six month break before he returns to this theme. In the meantime there will no doubt be many others, equally misguided. Even if he gets through to the end of Boheme without laying another egg it'll be a miracle.
Sat, Feb 11 2012, 10:56AM
#14
RE: "La Boheme": An incontestable masterpiece?
A little sad perhaps but that about sums it up tagalie - and I thought your "sonata-form" comment hilarious in the context!
Vic.
Sat, Feb 11 2012, 2:19PM
#15
RE: "La Boheme": An incontestable masterpiece?
So, Tagalie, you went all the way to paint such a picture of Parla, because he simply put to the table a view different than what might be less common or reasonable. In this case, I stated that this is a perception, not the view or the perception. So, apparently, whatever comes from Parla and goes beyond the common view, taste and so on, cannot be accepted, even tolerated.
Your "sonata form" analysis (or whatever could be called) might be "hilarious in the context" (as Vic points out) even to me, but it's unfair, shows a great deal of discomfort (to say the least) from your side and I wonder what might be your ulterior motive.
I have enough humour to tolerate and even entertain any attacks, ugly statements against me (and not the substance of my argument often), while, very rarely, my "assailants" resort to a productive discussion with specific arguments. As for the "unshakeable arrogance", I simply know we have to check ourselves first, before we embark on putting any label on others. That's why I refrain from even dealing with the character, the mood, the tone of other posters. I just try to respond only to the substance of the post.
I could use a Rondo form analysis of some posters, but that's not to the interest of the forum. So, let's settle down. I admire, love and know Boheme as you may do, Tagalie. I have the right to comprehend and appreciate it, in a different way as you do as well. If my evidence for my perception doesn't make sense to you, we can stop somewhere along the exchanges of our arguments, without resorting to further analysis of people we don't know and we will never do.
Parla
Personally, I always thought the opening of Boheme was a superb scene-setting for what happens later, not to mention the foundation of some important musical themes.
Absolutely spot on.
Yep. Me too.
Vic.