"La Boheme": An incontestable masterpiece?
Sat, Feb 11 2012, 2:03PM
#2
RE: "La Boheme": An incontestable masterpiece?
Caballe said:
If he could only take the advice of Vic and others to moderate the lecturing style of his posts, forum members would feel more inclined to engage with him in friendly debate rather than ducking the crossfire. I for one am genuinely interested in reading the opinions of others and hope others will be interested in what I have to say and feel free to disagree with me as they see fit. I don't understand why Parla feels he has to peddle the views of friends, professors and people he knows in the music business rather than just say what he thinks. It detracts rather than adds weight to what he has to say. If his friends, professors and others want to contribute they can register and contribute to the forum themselves. I am sure they don't require a spokesperson, self-appointed or otherwise.
Absolutely in total agreement with you Caballe. Well put!
And Parla, in case you think we are ganging up on you, I have always been someone who is prepared to enter into dialogue with you on account of your obvious knowledge and enthusiasm, but just however let me add:
I find it a bit disconcerting that you consult so regularly with your musical friends. It's not that there is anything wrong with that in principle, it's just that you don't seem to consult, or construct, with us, but continually disagree or tell us what is Holy Writ.
What we are actually doing on a forum like this Parla is contributing to a debate, not owning the thread outright oneself. We have a shared ownership through contributing, in fact.
As Vic has said, if you could soften your judgements at times with oft-heard tags like 'in my opinion' or 'it seems' or 'there is a body of opinion that' etc...there are numerous phrases that can be used.
It came as a shock to me to learn a few years ago that there is a view now generally prevalent in the academic world that knowledge is socially constructed, not individually constructed, at the end of the day. I think there is a lot of credence in that. How often do we change, adapt, modify our position, even if only slightly, after debate with others? If you take another look at recent threads on choral and new music you will see that we do, in fact, appreciate and act on each others' suggestions. We bounce ideas off each other. That is perfectly normal, and an example of the ongoing social construction of knowledge. And, we can of course disagree, or agree to disagree, without losing respect for each other.
My reference to 'Who wants to be a millionaire?' was a joke, but with a serious point underlying it, since I think there is an element of gamesmanship, Parla, in your approach.
Finally, as someone who doesn't know La Boheme as well as you guys, I have found this topic very interesting, to look on and learn, if I can't contribute. I'm certainly not prepared to pretend that I know more than I do on a subject, as that would be a form of deception.
Yours
Mark
Sat, Feb 11 2012, 6:15PM
#3
RE: "La Boheme": An incontestable...
I have been following this post, but have so far refrained from posting, as I'd already had experience of Parla's unshakeable belief that he is right, in the debate on Jonas Kaufmann.In the end, I found the whole debate tiresome in the extreme and stopped following it. It ceased to be about Kaufmann, and descended, like so many others, to something akin to a playground dispute.
However i shouldn't be deprived of the right to express an opinion, and so I'll chip in with my two pennyworth. La Boheme was, in fact, the opera that first really converted me opera. No doubt it has served the same purpose for many. I was 18 and queued for ages for a seat at the Newcastle Theatre Royal for a Glyndebourne Touring Opera Production. In the end I shared a box with three other people (all unknown to each other) and remember sitting in the corner of the box, tears pouring down my face for most of the time. That's how much the music affected me. It was a traditional production with a cast of young singers (essential I feel in this opera), one of whom, Linda Esther Gray, went on to have quite a career. I've since seen it many times of course, though no other performance has quite had the effect of thatfirst one, and have heard many recordings, though the one I cling to is still Callas, superb in an unchracteristic role (only Callas has that ability to bring a lump to the throat with the way she sings one word, dorme? in Act III being a particular example).
I would not hesitate to call La Boheme a masterpiece. Like all Puccini's operas, it works incredibly well in the theatre, and can even make an effect with less than great singers, though, it has to be admitted, the demands on the performers are relatively slight. Musically it is well crafted, and, though the big moments are supremely beautiful, Puccini's scene setting is also extremely adept and well crafted. Nowadays, my tastes more sophisticated, I can find it a little mawkish and sentimental, but to complain about that is to complain about sugar being too sweet. It is what it is. Nowadays I also prefer Verdi. His themes are altogether grander and I believe he tells us more about the human condition, but that is not to detract from the brilliantly effective theatrical operas that Puccini left us.
Sat, Feb 11 2012, 6:17PM
#4
RE: "La Boheme": An incontestable masterpiece?
Oh, dear! the 400 word and beyond is allowed when you guys sermonise about how I have to behave in this forum. However, I appreciate your much more thoughtful, kind (in some ways) and caring advise, dear Caballe and Mark.
Few remarks: Caballe, allow me to doubt about the "already converted". When I joined this forum, I thought I will communicate with like-minded people. Apparently, the members in this forum are like Christianity; there are plenty of denominations, sects etc. So, people here defend their positions, in one or the other way, anyway.
The fact that I refer to my friends-musicians, old professors etc is because they will never do (for different reasons), on one hand, and because I care about reaching some kind of common denominator on the Truth about the different aspects of Classical Music. So, I try to pass messages that are not simply personal views, opinions, etc.
However, in the case of Boheme, I explained that the view about the first part of the First Act (that came out of my research with my friends, etc.) is just a view, not the only view, and I was faced with an intolerance of the highest degree, a hostility of a considerable extent, a vehemence of first order and disrespect of noticeable incivility.
As for the "socially constructed" forum, dear Mark, I think, if I remember well, we have been involved in a quite a few constructive exchanges and I don't recall we were that often in disagreement, at the end of our discourse. And that happened not only with you. I wonder where did you find this notion of "ownership" of threads. I just participate wherever and whenever I feel compelled to say something.
Finally, I'm really curiously interested to find out where and which is this "element of gamesmanship" in my approach. That would be news to me.
...and if this topic was interesting to you, Mark, then, it was worthwhile, malgre' tout...
Parla
Sat, Feb 11 2012, 6:51PM
#5
RE: "La Boheme": An incontestable masterpiece?
mange tout Rodney, mange tout.
Sat, Feb 11 2012, 8:47PM
#6
RE: "La Boheme": An incontestable masterpiece?
Parla, you can behave how you wish on this forum providing you don't upset the moderators but you can hardly be surprised when other forum members take exception to your somewhat idiosyncratic style of writing when you challenge whatever they have to say. And if at times it seems you are being subjected to personal attacks this forum is relatively genteel compared to the somewhat vile remarks you would encounter on several other internet forums. Have you ever visited You Tube, for example and read through the comments underneath the clips? Furthermore, have you ever stopped to ponder if the reaction you sometimes obtain is proportionate to the conflict your thought processes often seem to provoke. Personally I don't see how contributing to this forum can get anyone near the Truth of Classical Music, whatever that phrase means. It's a concept I don't comprehend and I'm not sure I want to. I'm also not sure what you are saying in your third paragraph when you write about your friends, musicians, old professors - "because they will never do". Never do what?
Sat, Feb 11 2012, 9:22PM
#7
RE: "La Boheme": An incontestable masterpiece?
Parla, as your 'pen pal' I have to be honest. I do think there is an element of gamesmanship in your approach; simply the wish to 'beat others' hands down in the argument.
To repeat it again: I, and others, don't take it that kindly if you see your friends as 'musical cognoscenti' and us on this forum as ignoramuses!
We all have to give and take Parla, not just give. Have a think about it.
Yes, your debates with me personally have often been constructive, but I just get that feeling, that on Sunday, or whenever, when you meet up with your musical friends in the Berlin terrace cafes, and sip your lates and your Viennese coffees,that you will say to them: 'You'll never guess what. I posted this topic on the Gramophone forum, and they believed me! Or 'I won the argument'. And your friends will laugh, and say well done.
That's the impression that we are picking up Parla, whether true or not.
Please accept this advice as 'friendly fire'.
Tsara - I know exactly what you mean. My conversion to opera has come relatively late in life, after a concert performance of 'It Tabarro' by Puccini at the Proms a couple of years ago. I was so excited that I rang my old man on my mobile and explained.
'Is that the one about the boatman?' he said.
'Yup' I replied.
'Crikey man,' he said (don't ask me why he said that he was never a sixties hippy). That's only a minor one! You want to listen to Tosca, and Madame Butterfly, and La Boheme...'
SO I've robbed his collection of 'La Boheme'. Bjorling, De Los Angeles and Beecham...
Best wishes
Mark
Sat, Feb 11 2012, 10:08PM
#8
RE: "La Boheme": An incontestable masterpiece?
Caballe and Mark, thanks a lot for your constructive and decent tips for a more productive and fruitful performance from my side, in this forum.
Caballe, I don't think I have ever "upset the moderators", since I never offended anyone or used abusive language. I don't "challenge whatever (other members) have to say", but only those remarks, statements, etc. that I found I have to respond. The fact that the infamous YouTube could be fraught of foul language doesn't justify the existence of any indecent attack in these forum of supposedly more educated, cultivated, sensible and, sometimes, sensitive people. The phrase "they will never do" means they will never participate in a forum like that, because of lack of time, command of English language, exhausting rehearsals, attending or giving lessons and some more reasons.
Mark, I thought you were closer than others to reach me, but you fail me. I'm really sorry if I give you that impression(s). The picture of the "Berlin terrace cafes" is so inspiring, intriguing and fascinating, but so far from any trace of Truth. However, if this is the impression you (and possibly many others) get from my posts, then, I have to take it into serious consideration. However, I cannot be somebody else. In any case, we are some sort of shadows in this forum. The colours and the pictures we draw with our posts, unfortunately, are like fleeting lovers.
Vielen Dank!
Parla
Sat, Feb 11 2012, 11:20PM
#9
RE: "La Boheme": An incontestable masterpiece?
Caballe, I don't think I have ever "upset the moderators", since I never offended anyone or used abusive language.
I seem to recall your use of a grossly offensive analogy in a previous thread upset contributors and moderators. Presumably this is why the latter deleted the post.
Sat, Feb 11 2012, 11:56PM
#10
RE: "La Boheme": An incontestable...
However i shouldn't be deprived of the right to express an opinion
Well I for one hope you never feel that is the case. I suspect every other contributor would agree.
.....a cast of young singers (essential I feel in this opera), one of whom, Linda Esther Gray, went on to have quite a career.
She did indeed. I saw her several times, most memorably her Isoldes at the WNO under Goodall. It was a great pity that her career was cut short at such an early age. She has talked to the Recorded Vocal Arts Society and is a very charming lady.
Sun, Feb 12 2012, 1:08PM
#11
RE: "La Boheme": An incontestable masterpiece?
You seem to recall well, JKH, but you should recall that I promptly apologised to anyone concerned for my unintended "grossly offensive analogy". I made the miscalculation to consider that I may use an example, already used in discussions among people who know each other, in the same way in an open forum. Anyway, message received to the letter.
However, I was not aware of the eventual removal of the post in question. Thanks for the info. Out of over 600 posts, one was ill-fated. Lesson learned : sapere aude!
Parla
Sun, Feb 12 2012, 1:17PM
#12
RE: "La Boheme": An incontestable masterpiece?
I seem to recall your use of a grossly offensive analogy in a previous thread upset contributors and moderators. Presumably this is why the latter deleted the post.
I have analogy to grass it be a right problem at harvest time.
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Oh dear! Another seemingly innocuous question posted by Parla in a manner reminiscient of a previous thread on Astor Piazolla turns sour soon after hitting the launchpad. Perhaps it may have been better if it had ended after the first two affirmative responses. I'm not sure if I would describe Parla as a wind-up artist. I believe he is sincere in his intention rather than deliberately being provocative or confrontational. However, his contributions have rather too much of missionary-like zeal in saving our souls from eternal damnation if we fail to listen, research, understand and appreciate all aspects of classical music. Parla fails to appreciate that he is addressing the already converted on this forum and we don't require Pastor Parla to sermonise and assist us on the path to salvation, thank-you.
If he could only take the advice of Vic and others to moderate the lecturing style of his posts, forum members would feel more inclined to engage with him in friendly debate rather than ducking the crossfire. I for one am genuinely interested in reading the opinions of others and hope others will be interested in what I have to say and feel free to disagree with me as they see fit. I don't understand why Parla feels he has to peddle the views of friends, professors and people he knows in the music business rather than just say what he thinks. It detracts rather than adds weight to what he has to say. If his friends, professors and others want to contribute they can register and contribute to the forum themselves. I am sure they don't require a spokesperson, self-appointed or otherwise.
As for me, I have listened to and seen La Boheme on many occasions and feel I know it like the back of my hand. I don't need someone to go through it quoting chapter and verse or listing key listening points/scenes to appreciate it as Parla did. I don't care if someone else regards it as a masterpiece or regards it as sentimental tosh. It's what I think that matters. Personally I regard Tosca as Puccini's masterpiece and Manon Lescaut and Butterfly are preferred listening and viewing choices above Boheme.