"La Boheme": An incontestable masterpiece?

38 posts / 0 new
Last post
RE: "La Boheme": An incontestable masterpiece?

tagalie wrote:

 

  As usual, as happens in every thread in which you start this garbage, you've been trounced logically re. your initial statement and are trying to shift ground, though not making any sense. 

I would like to think that Parla could concede that there is some truth in this statement.  There are now dozens of examples where a hastily considered comment or judgment is made and challenged, to be followed by protracted self-justification with varying degrees of logic or consistency.    I have listed several elsewhere but decided some time ago to refrain from pointless exchanges when new ones like this arise.  The frustration that some feel over this, shall we say, idiosyncrasy, is regrettable, especially in the light of Parla's undoubted knowledge, expertise and valued contributions in so may areas.   On balance, I personally find his contributions worth the annoying, and seemingly limitless capacity to need to be always in the right about everything. 

A nod of acknowledgement to Talalie's point would be a timely and graceful gesture perhaps.

Vic.

RE: "La Boheme": An incontestable masterpiece?

I prefer Tosca, Butterfly and Turandot, but Boheme is excellent singers music and has it's great moments.

"La Boheme": An incontestable masterpiece?

VicJayL wrote:

tagalie wrote:

   As usual, as happens in every thread in which you start this garbage, you've been trounced logically re. your initial statement and are trying to shift ground, though not making any sense. 

I would like to think that Parla could concede that there is some truth in this statement.........................A nod of acknowledgement to Talalie's point would be a timely and graceful gesture perhaps.

Vic.

A quick internet trawl reveals that the world breath-holding record is 11 min 35 sec. Good luck in your attempt, Vic. 

JKH

RE: "La Boheme": An incontestable masterpiece?

 

Parla

A warning at this point:

You've used two lifelines already. You've phoned a friend, and you've asked the audience.

Your last option of course is to ask the computer to take away two wrong answers...

Mark

Hi Ludwg. Hpe u don mind me sendin u a txt mes. How u doin? - Yrs. Frz Scbrt.

RE: "La Boheme": An incontestable masterpiece?

Well, well, well. You deal more with the messenger than the message or because of the message. Anyway, don't shoot the pianist. Sometimes, he may have to play the "wrong" tunes...

Starting with my dear friend Mark. I didn't use any lifeline and I don't have any "last option", since I "don't want to become a millionaire" (at least in this way).

However, using this as a metaphor in this thread, I may say that I "phone a friend" (the tour de table with my friends, associates, etc) and I brought to the table our findings that this Opera is a masterpiece after all (despite some reservations. Thus, the question mark in the title.). Then, the audience responded and with a strong majority claimed the undisputed greatness of "La Boheme". However, at least two members express their reservations. The most interesting and possibly pertinent could be Frank Einstein's "Boheme is excellent singers music" and "has its great moments".

Tagalie, you don't have to resort to unnecessary language (to put it politely) to show that you soundly disagree with me. The fact that I was not convinced that the "few examples" you provided may constitute the clever connection and correlation between the different parts of the Opera but not necessarily the "superb scene-setting" does not mean "my argument is at a dead end". As for the tunes, you may remember them (as I do), but are they actually great themes (superb music)? Memorable in the sense that you feel thrilled to remember them?

In any case, if I can help the situation so that we may converge at a certain point, I can state that I have no problem if you Tagalie (and a good majority of those who so far have participated) believe that La Boheme is an undisputed masterpiece from the outset to the very end. However, you may contemplate the idea that there might be a certain amount of people who love the work, Opera and predominantly Classical Music and happen to believe that the greatness of this work and Puccini in general lie in these unique moments, magically created by the composer, and not that much on the integrity of the total work. Something equally significant (it's not that indifferent to make masses getting nuts with "o mio babino caro", when they may have no idea from which Opera comes or even who is the composer. Let alone what happens with the fate of "Nessun dorma").

So, I fully respect your perception (and I comprehend it to a great extent). I hope you may treat the one I represent, somehow, in the same way.

Best wishes,

Parla

 

 

RE: "La Boheme":

VicJayL wrote:

 There are now dozens of examples where a hastily considered comment or judgment is made and challenged, to be followed by protracted self-justification with varying degrees of logic or consistency.    I have listed several elsewhere but decided some time ago to refrain from pointless exchanges when new ones like this arise.  The frustration that some feel over this, shall we say, idiosyncrasy, is regrettable, especially in the light of Parla's undoubted knowledge, expertise and valued contributions in so may areas.   On balance, I personally find his contributions worth the annoying, and seemingly limitless capacity to need to be always in the right about everything. 

Vic,

I agree in most respects but I’m beginning to doubt the ‘expertise’. What I see is a ton of random musical information with little notion of how to deal with it.

If you go back to the earlier days of this forum you’ll find I was a Parla defender, mainly on the grounds that, English not being his first language, he might not be coming across clearly in his posts. My mind change stems from the exact point you make: we’ve been through this Parla Song and Dance routine so many times and it’s a bore. Its steps never vary, there’s almost a sonata form about them:

1) Make an insupportable, ill-considered statement.

2) In the face of attacks from other forum members, claim that they have misunderstood what you said, forgive them and say it again using 400 words instead of 10.

3) Produce a series of irrelevant monster posts whose logic, syntax and gist nobody can decipher.

4) By now most of your critics have given up in frustration or boredom. For the benefit of those few remaining, invoke mythical experts and old profs who you claim support your view. And try to change the subject.

5) In the face of insurmountable evidence that the statement made in (1) was indeed ridiculous, claim victory, move on but not before forgiving your assailants for being rude and stupid.

6) Six months later, repeat the statement made in (1)

All this is done with unshakeable arrogance and lack of humour. The grace or wit to admit error is totally absent. Doctor B/Devon Farmer etc. at least try to keep it light.

As you can see from his post above, we're now at stage 5. We have about a six month break before he returns to this theme. In the meantime there will no doubt be many others, equally misguided. Even if he gets through to the end of Boheme without laying another egg it'll be a miracle.

RE: "La Boheme": An incontestable masterpiece?

 A little sad perhaps but that about sums it up tagalie - and I thought your "sonata-form" comment hilarious in the context!

Vic.

RE: "La Boheme": An incontestable masterpiece?

So, Tagalie, you went all the way to paint such a picture of Parla, because he simply put to the table a view different than what might be less common or reasonable. In this case, I stated that this is a perception, not the view or the perception. So, apparently, whatever comes from Parla and goes beyond the common view, taste and so on, cannot be accepted, even tolerated.

Your "sonata form" analysis (or whatever could be called) might be "hilarious in the context" (as Vic points out) even to me, but it's unfair, shows a great deal of discomfort (to say the least) from your side and I wonder what might be your ulterior motive.

I have enough humour to tolerate and even entertain any attacks, ugly statements against me (and not the substance of my argument often), while, very rarely, my "assailants" resort to a productive discussion with specific arguments. As for the "unshakeable arrogance", I simply know we have to check ourselves first, before we embark on putting any label on others. That's why I refrain from even dealing with the character, the mood, the tone of  other posters. I just try to respond only to the substance of the post.

I could use a Rondo form analysis of some posters, but that's not to the interest of the forum. So, let's settle down. I admire, love and know Boheme as you may do, Tagalie. I have the right to comprehend and appreciate it, in a different way as you do as well. If my evidence for my perception doesn't make sense to you, we can stop somewhere along the exchanges of our arguments, without resorting to further analysis of people we don't know and we will never do.

Parla

RE: "La Boheme": An incontestable masterpiece?

Oh dear! Another seemingly innocuous question posted by Parla in a manner reminiscient of a previous thread on Astor Piazolla turns sour soon after hitting the launchpad. Perhaps it may have been better if it had ended after the first two affirmative responses. I'm not sure if I would describe Parla as a wind-up artist. I believe he is sincere in his intention rather than deliberately being provocative or confrontational. However, his contributions have rather too much of missionary-like zeal in saving our souls from eternal damnation if we fail to listen, research, understand and appreciate all aspects of classical music. Parla fails to appreciate that he is addressing the already converted on this forum and we don't require Pastor Parla to sermonise and assist us on the path to salvation, thank-you.

If he could only take the advice of Vic and others to moderate the lecturing style of his posts, forum members would feel more inclined to engage with him in friendly debate rather than ducking the crossfire. I for one am genuinely interested in reading the opinions of others and hope others will be interested in what I have to say and feel free to disagree with me as they see fit. I don't understand why Parla feels he has to peddle the views of friends, professors and people he knows in the music business rather than just say what he thinks. It detracts rather than adds weight to what he has to say. If his friends, professors and others want to contribute they can register and contribute to the forum themselves. I am sure they don't require a spokesperson, self-appointed or otherwise.

As for me, I have listened to and seen La Boheme on many occasions and feel I know it like the back of my hand. I don't need someone to go through it quoting chapter and verse or listing key listening points/scenes to appreciate it as Parla did. I don't care if someone else regards it as a masterpiece or regards it as sentimental tosh. It's what I think that matters. Personally I regard Tosca as Puccini's masterpiece and Manon Lescaut and Butterfly are preferred listening and viewing choices above Boheme.

RE: "La Boheme": An incontestable masterpiece?

 

Caballe said:

If he could only take the advice of Vic and others to moderate the lecturing style of his posts, forum members would feel more inclined to engage with him in friendly debate rather than ducking the crossfire. I for one am genuinely interested in reading the opinions of others and hope others will be interested in what I have to say and feel free to disagree with me as they see fit. I don't understand why Parla feels he has to peddle the views of friends, professors and people he knows in the music business rather than just say what he thinks. It detracts rather than adds weight to what he has to say. If his friends, professors and others want to contribute they can register and contribute to the forum themselves. I am sure they don't require a spokesperson, self-appointed or otherwise.

Absolutely in total agreement with you Caballe. Well put!

And Parla, in case you think we are ganging up on you, I have always been someone who is prepared to enter into dialogue with you on account of your obvious knowledge and enthusiasm, but just however let me add:

I find it a bit disconcerting that you consult so regularly with your musical friends. It's not that there is anything wrong with that in principle, it's just that you don't seem to consult, or construct, with us, but continually disagree or tell us what is Holy Writ.

What we are actually doing on a forum like this Parla is contributing to a debate, not owning the thread outright oneself. We have a shared ownership through contributing, in fact.

As Vic has said, if you could soften your judgements at times with oft-heard tags like 'in my opinion' or 'it seems' or 'there is a body of opinion that' etc...there are numerous phrases that can be used.

It came as a shock to me to learn a few years ago that there is a view now generally prevalent in the academic world that knowledge is socially constructed, not individually constructed, at the end of the day. I think there is a lot of credence in that. How often do we change, adapt, modify our position, even if only slightly, after debate with others? If you take another look at recent threads on choral and new music you will see that we do, in fact, appreciate and act on each others' suggestions. We bounce ideas off each other. That is perfectly normal, and an example of the ongoing social construction of knowledge. And, we can of course disagree, or agree to disagree, without losing respect for each other.

My reference to 'Who wants to be a millionaire?' was a joke, but with a serious point underlying it, since I think there is an element of gamesmanship, Parla, in your approach.

Finally, as someone who doesn't know La Boheme as well as you guys, I have found this topic very interesting, to look on and learn, if I can't contribute. I'm certainly not prepared to pretend that I know more than I do on a subject, as that would be a form of deception.

Yours

Mark

 

Hi Ludwg. Hpe u don mind me sendin u a txt mes. How u doin? - Yrs. Frz Scbrt.

Pages

Log in or register to post comments
© MA Business and Leisure Ltd. 2014