Listening Project

There are several other choral works by Brahms that fail to gain popularity, like the Schicksalslied and Triumphlied (understandable because they're hardly masterpieces) and Nanie (less understandable). Sinopoli included them all together with the Alto Rhapsody on a DG CD, gotta love that one.

50milliarden, I would disagree there. "The Song of Destiny" is an astounding work. "Rinaldo" is less perfect but still contains much masterly music. Did Sinopoli include it in his set? I have only ever seen the version conducted in the 60s by Abbado.

I realize I was talking more about the "Triumphlied" than the "Schicksalslied", the latter being, granted, a much better piece than the first, where some quite un-Brahmsian patriottism shows its ugly face. What is it with composers always checking their genius at the door when they're obliged (at gun-point, or not) to write something to celebrate a militairy victory or just the obvious superiority of one country over another? See Beethoven's Wellington's Sieg, which made you wonder why Napoleon got the best part of his inspiration in the Eroica, while Wellington had to do with the crumbs falling from the table... or Shostakovich' and Prokofiev's less than venerable excersizes in soviet-realism.

Which links us nicely to the "curious dislikes" thread.

I'm not so sure, 50m, that the French would agree with you, but even as a "joke", Donizettti's Aria, instead of making you laugh at the "funny" patriotism of the French, gives you some exciting thrills to sing along the naive (if not foolish) text of "Salut a la France".

As for Wagner, there are quite a few passages that may make anyone feel "uncomfortable". However, his music transcends the shortcomings and "sensitivities" of the average listener. It is the glorious music that counts more than any text, "unwelcome associations" and unnecessary connections. And, unfortunately, one of Wagner's (as well as Beethoven's, Brahms etc.) music essential features is that it is German, in the sense that it is not something generic and "fit for all" thing. It is predominantly, if not exclusively, German, as Faure's music is French and Shostakovich's Russian, Villa-Lobos' Brazilian and so on. So, it is not "all" great artists that "leave their nationality behind". However, even if some great artists leave aside their nationality and "strive to produce a masterpiece", what kind of identity this work might have? Is it "international" music, Occidental, Oriental or what?

Finally, Mahler's "morbidity" and Bruckner's "religiosity" are more than "personal traits"; they are much more significant and wider notions than patriotism (and nationalism) and can affect almost every listener. I feel more "concerned" with someone who has an obsession with death rather than with someone who serves and honours his country and its culture. Of course, Mahler's music transcends as well the morbidity he could not escape of, but, still, it is a huge burden to go through all these pages of the importance, meaning, ramifications and eventual victory of the inevitable...end.

Parla

So, back to listening reports.  And this time I'm not the last!

As you say Brumas, it's nice sometimes to go back to something 'classical'.

Having been led to expect (and to avoid) comparison with FJH-WAM, I was somewhat taken aback by the slow introduction to the first movement.  The composer that came immediately to mind for comparison was Gluck.  It has the same atmosphere as can be found in his late operas (especially the two Iphigenia works). Less austere than Gluck but very grand and powerful. Once it gets going the allegro too sounds 'earlier' than ..... (not allowed).... and had me searching for more Gluckian examples.  But he has a voice of his own.  Comparisons with JC, CPE and WF Bach, as well as Dittersdorf find each of them obviously different.  Again in the slow movement, the stately Andante has (for me) its nearest counterparts in Gluck (try Don Juan). Then the final Allegro assai: at last we feel the 'Sturm und Drang' influence, even here though his modulations closer to Gluck than anyone else I know of.

Interesting! And worth looking out for some others of his symphonies. I didn't find the performance at all heavy.  It seemed right for the music to me.  Great choice!

Brahms' Rinaldo sounds an interesting idea too, and another that comes to mind (for some future date) might be Schubert's much neglected Gesang der Geister über den Wassern (Song of the Spirits on the Water) - unless you all know it.

This is turning into a really great thread. Bravo Brumas!

Chris

PS: Just looked Kraus up in Wikipedia. The article states that Kraus's symphony opens with the same music as the opening measures of Gluck's Iphigenie en Aulide overture.  That's not so in fact but the two are very similar in style.