Listening Project

355 replies [Last post]
c hris johnson
c hris johnson's picture
Offline
Joined: 8th Sep 2010
Posts: 569
RE: Listening Project

Brumas wrote "Quite a feat to create such a variety of sounds with only 24 instruments, let alone 24 acoustic ones!"

I couldn't disagree with that Brumas. My difficulty was finding what these wierd and wonderful sounds added up to, or what holds the piece together. The 'something' I need to keep the piece together in my mind eluded me.  I could not get a feeling for the piece's structure. Perhaps I was wrong to be thinking that way, but most works I enjoy and/or admire have a structure I can at least begin to grasp. It does rather seem too that the lighting is part of the experience (I think you mentioned this before). Perhaps attending an audio-visual performance would yield a different impression.  Like Naupilus, I've always found it easier to get to know 'difficult' music in live performances.

Chris

__________________

Chris A.Gnostic

partsong
partsong's picture
Offline
Joined: 23rd Aug 2010
Posts: 541
RE: Listening Project

Yes Brumas agreed, and Chris, there is an amazing variety of sounds. It is a fascinating piece. I think I'll give it another listen in the next couple of days.

The link Brumas posted Chris does give an outline of the structure, and as you can see I didn't look at it until after listening this afternoon. Having said that, I find it's sometimes better to listen without reading an analysis first to see what sense I can make myself of a piece. It pre-disposes you to watch out for this and pay attention to that if you read the analysis first, so it was interesting to read it after listening to it.

Must dash - I have to go and watch Naupilus' boys in action. 

Mark 

janeeliotgardiner
janeeliotgardiner's picture
Offline
Joined: 22nd Nov 2012
Posts: 40
RE: Listening Project

Parla wrote:
The reason I have an extensive collection of all these minor (to negligible) composers......

But where does he keep this extensive collection

parla
parla's picture
Online
Joined: 6th Aug 2011
Posts: 1815
RE: Listening Project

I'm flattered by your interest, Jane, even in where I keep my collection. Very ingenious the "raiders of the lost ark warehouse" finding. However, I don't think is anybody's business and we should not waste any time with this kind of existential problems. Anyway, the key issue is not where I keep my collection, but how I have to manage it. Particularly, when, in few or some years, I might be not able to keep listening in the same way, as I grow older and older and my health is not the best I could wish for.

Again thanks for your "interest" in almost anything has to do with Parla. And many thanks for the always entertaining posts.

Parla

c hris johnson
c hris johnson's picture
Offline
Joined: 8th Sep 2010
Posts: 569
RE: Listening Project

Thank you Brumas, and Mark for your encouragement in trying to get to grips with the Haas piece.  I have listened to some of it again but I still remain resolutely on the 'outside' of this music.  I can read the analysis, but don't get any feeling for the music or its structure. So, so far, in vain! It's not simply about whether there is a structure or not.  The essence of getting to understand a work, or a composer for me is getting a feeling of being 'inside' the music.  I can't put it better than that. Some of Schönberg's more austere works can be subject to a perfect logical analysis, but obstinately refuse to go in.  On the other hand I feel I have the key to Messiaen's music and, increasingly, to much of Boulez. I think I'll have a better chance with Scelsi than with Haas, but time will tell.

Parla you implied that you have become less interested to explore new repertoire with increasing age (unless I misunderstood).  I suspect that may be true for others too. For me, it rather goes in phases: a phase of new discoveries and relative neglect of my repertory of 'core' masterpieces (but never of Bach!), is often folowed by a period of retrenchment.  At the moment, no doubt partly to do with this forum, I am in an exploratory phase! But it's not possible to explore everything at once! I need to concentrate, perhaps to excess on one composer, or group of composers.

I'm rather tempted at the moment by the Scandinavian composers influenced by Nielsen. Both Koppel and Aho have whetted my appetite. Of course I know many of Nielsen's finer works but the Koppel, and especially the Aho, seem much more interesting than the more minor works of Nielsen. And I know far too little of Rautavaara. 

And then, thanks to Bazza, I'm having a revival of interest in Schnittke!

That's enough to keep me occupied for now.

Chris

__________________

Chris A.Gnostic

c hris johnson
c hris johnson's picture
Offline
Joined: 8th Sep 2010
Posts: 569
RE: Listening Project

Hi Mark,

Following at last from your amazing excursion under the stairs, I eventually ventured into the underworld where my old programmes are stored. From a lot of boxes of concert, opera and theatre programmes, I eventually found the one with all the BBC Symphony Orchrestra and related concerts. There, neatly filed (amazing, when did I do it?) were all the concerts I attended in the Music of Eight Decades series.  The only one a missed was the second, when Jessye Norman sang Messiaen's Poems pour Mi. Why I missed that, I can't imagine now, since it's a work I've known and loved for a long time.

OK, you don't have to be a mathematical genius to work out from the above that one of those I did attend was the one on 23 March (with a certain symphony by Lutoslawski, etc.!!!!) Hm! How could I have no recollection of this! Worrying! Incidently the second conductor had originally been announced as Hans Zender.

Highlights which I do remember include the first concert (Weill; Berliner Requiem, Henze; Fourteen Songs from 'Voices', with the London Sinfonietta), BBC Symphony under Boulez in Webern, Boulez, and Bartok's Miraculous Mandarin, Stockhausen, Dallapiccola and Berio (Circles) with the Sinfonietta under Lothar Zagrosek, Rattle and the London Sinfonietta in Birtwistle, Stravinsky (Requiem Canticles) and Tippett's Concerto for Orchestra, and another Sinfonietta concert including Kurtag's Messages of the late Miss R V Trousssova.  That last one was in June 1984, so you were probably busy with exams.

There was a lot more interesting stuff too from the BBC Symphony Orchestra's regular series.  Brings back lots of fascinating memories, which makes the blank about the Lutoslawski all the more worrying/surprising!

Chris

__________________

Chris A.Gnostic

BazzaRiley
BazzaRiley's picture
Offline
Joined: 14th Mar 2010
Posts: 196
RE: Listening Project

c hris johnson wrote:
...I'm having a revival of interest in Schnittke!

Me too thanks to whoever it was that suggested the fourth string quartet on this thread. ;-)

Downloaded just the other day BIS's boxset of the 10 symphonies. I have 3&5 already and heard (and hated!) the more avante garde 1st many moons ago. The rest will be interesting to explore. I read that the last four are more personal utterances than the weighty fifth.

As for Aho, the latest instalment is a curious CD featuring two clarinets works played by none other than Osmo Vanska (yes, he is an ace tootler) and - wait for it - a sonata for two accordians. A real virtuoso showpiece!

 

brumas est mort
brumas est mort's picture
Offline
Joined: 16th Nov 2012
Posts: 102
RE: Listening Project

c hris johnson wrote:

Thank you Brumas, and Mark for your encouragement in trying to get to grips with the Haas piece.  I have listened to some of it again but I still remain resolutely on the 'outside' of this music.  I can read the analysis, but don't get any feeling for the music or its structure. So, so far, in vain! It's not simply about whether there is a structure or not.  The essence of getting to understand a work, or a composer for me is getting a feeling of being 'inside' the music.  I can't put it better than that. Some of Schönberg's more austere works can be subject to a perfect logical analysis, but obstinately refuse to go in.  On the other hand I feel I have the key to Messiaen's music and, increasingly, to much of Boulez. I think I'll have a better chance with Scelsi than with Haas, but time will tell.

Parla you implied that you have become less interested to explore new repertoire with increasing age (unless I misunderstood).  I suspect that may be true for others too. For me, it rather goes in phases: a phase of new discoveries and relative neglect of my repertory of 'core' masterpieces (but never of Bach!), is often folowed by a period of retrenchment.  At the moment, no doubt partly to do with this forum, I am in an exploratory phase! But it's not possible to explore everything at once! I need to concentrate, perhaps to excess on one composer, or group of composers.

I'm rather tempted at the moment by the Scandinavian composers influenced by Nielsen. Both Koppel and Aho have whetted my appetite. Of course I know many of Nielsen's finer works but the Koppel, and especially the Aho, seem much more interesting than the more minor works of Nielsen. And I know far too little of Rautavaara. 

And then, thanks to Bazza, I'm having a revival of interest in Schnittke!

That's enough to keep me occupied for now.

Chris

 

I can totally see where you're comming from. in vain is a huge, complex and strange work, and I had to listen quite a few times before I could go 'inside'. But I can absolutely understand it is not up to everyone's alley. At the very least you have made some discoveries that were worthwhile to you, which was the intention of this thread after all :-)

I think you'll have more luck with Scelsi. His work is much more directly sensual and intuitive: he saw himself as a 'messenger' from a higher realm, rather then as a composer. 

(In fact, his compositional methods are quite interesting. His works are 'frozen improvisations', composed with a very primitve version of overdubbing. Scelsi would improvise on an ondioline (an early electronic keyboard instrument that allows for microtonal inflections) and record these improvisations. Then, he would play back this recording and at the same time play another improvisation, recording these combined sounds with a second recorder, etc. Then, he would, with the help of an amanuensis, notate and orchestrate these recordings.)

__________________

And loudly from the rooftops hear us shout it --- "Down with the New Age and the proliferation of pet ideologies that only divide hearts on Sacred Observance, and play directly into the hands of globalist hegemonic powers. Up with the simple inextinguishable Light of Truth". 

partsong
partsong's picture
Offline
Joined: 23rd Aug 2010
Posts: 541
RE: Listening Project

Hi Chris! You must be psychic, as I found the leaflet of the concert series and was going to ask you a few posts back which ones you got to in that series!

It's amazing what one forgets. This box is showing me that I heard no less than four of Shostakovitch's most well-loved symphonies in concert in the 80's - no 1 as above with Lutosalwski 3, no 5 with Leonard Slatkin/Philharmonia (17/4/88) no 8 with Rudolf Barshai/Philharmonia (27/5/88) and no 15 with Kurt Sanderling/Philharmonia (14/6/88). How could I have forgotten that I also heard Sinopoli in his element conducting the Verdi Requiem? (18/5/84 - with the same orchestra and chorus this time - Price, Palmer, Collins and LLoyd the soloists)

Just think...we could have passed each other on the stairs or in the bar, not knowing that years later we would become forum pals talking about such events!

Looking at that leaflet, I regret now not going to some of the others, but was probably in the local on some evenings with my two flatmates sinking a few chasers, and wondering how much more information I could cram inside my head before it exploded. This was the daft days of eight x 3 hour exams in one batch, so it was accepted that after Christmas in your third year was revision revision and revision. Nowadays there's a much more sensible policy of one essay plus one exam per module as you go along...

That Lutoslawski 3 concert though really did send me off in search of more concerts of his music, including 3 in the Lutosalwski festival of February 89 (Philharmonia again) and a prom where Anne-Sophie Mutter played Chain 2 (I've mentioned those on Michael's Lutoslawski blogs).

Mark

 

 

parla
parla's picture
Online
Joined: 6th Aug 2011
Posts: 1815
RE: Listening Project

Chris, I didn't exactly meant that "I'm less interested to explore new repertoire with increasing age". What I wanted to say is that, after having, for years, explored enough of almost any sort of "new" repertory, I came to the conclusion that, after the glorious peaks of the Classics (including the Greats of the Romantic era), anything else seems, sounds and eventually is so much less substantive, important, significant, fulfilling etc.

Having said that, I don't mean we have to dismiss them out of the picture, but to concentrate too much on the minor, modern, post-modern, serial, avant-garde etc composers is like dealing with the "side dishes", ignoring the actual ambrosia...

Besides, a great deal of musicians, either soloists or playing in Orchestras, admit that it constitutes a great pleasure for them to perform, even repeatedly, a Symphony by Beethoven or Haydn or a Chamber music work by Schubert or Mozart than any "revelatory" new kind of so (easily) called masterpiece.

The other day, I attended a concert of the violinist of our Chamber group, performing some very "advanced" works for solo violin. One of them was by a certain Dutch composer called Andriessen (a household name for our contemporary stuff), where, at a certain time, the violinist has to perform some very meaningful "melodies" on her instrument, while, at the same time, she has to sing (!) "something" quite irrelevant! After this concert, fortunately, we have prepared another educational one for the young audiences, where she had to perform Mozart's Violin/Piano Sonata in e minor, K.304, Beethoven's Op.30, 3 in G  and the monumental one by Franck in A. You cannot imagine the pleasure, the fulfillment and sheer joy she had before, during and after the concert.

Finally, a great Italian Pianist (unfortunately not a household name in most of the parts of Europe) called Christian Leotta, in a concert in a major Asian capital, brought again to my attention an underrated, almost neglected but so wonderful Sonata for Piano by Beethoven, the lovely one op.14, no2, in G. (A subject for further analysis is Beethoven in G: It was not one of his favourite keys, but he escaped by writing some of his most individual, entertaining and sometimes inspiring works). By the way, Leotta has almost completed his cycle of Beethoven Piano Sonatas for the prestigious and eclectic Canadian label Atma. He is very solid, impressive and often...stormy. You may try one of his Volumes (each one is a double CD, containing enough Sonatas to sample).

Parla

50milliarden
50milliarden's picture
Offline
Joined: 18th Oct 2012
Posts: 111
RE: Listening Project

parla wrote:
What I wanted to say is that, after having, for years, explored enough of almost any sort of "new" repertory, I came to the conclusion that, after the glorious peaks of the Classics (including the Greats of the Romantic era), anything else seems, sounds and eventually is so much less substantive, important, significant, fulfilling etc.

You may have come to this conclusion, others haven't. Is it too much asked to leave discussions about modern music to people who are actually interested in it and not ruin their enjoyment by shoving your personal-opinion-presented-as-the-absolute-truth down everyone's throats?

 

CraigM
CraigM's picture
Offline
Joined: 2nd Oct 2010
Posts: 179
RE: Listening Project

50milliarden wrote:
You may have come to this conclusion, others haven't. Is it too much asked to leave discussions about modern music to people who are actually interested in it and not ruin their enjoyment by shoving your personal-opinion-presented-as-the-absolute-truth down everyone's throats?

Quite.

brumas est mort
brumas est mort's picture
Offline
Joined: 16th Nov 2012
Posts: 102
RE: Listening Project

But don't you see... We have to protect the repertory of Masterpieces of Classical Music from all these "new", "innovative"...works of second rate!

Parla

__________________

And loudly from the rooftops hear us shout it --- "Down with the New Age and the proliferation of pet ideologies that only divide hearts on Sacred Observance, and play directly into the hands of globalist hegemonic powers. Up with the simple inextinguishable Light of Truth". 

parla
parla's picture
Online
Joined: 6th Aug 2011
Posts: 1815
RE: Listening Project

Those who "have not come to this conclusion", 50m, can they actually claim that there is any composer or any work of music in the more "modern" repertory that can musically stand next to the opus of Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, Schubert or Brahms or Wagner and, if yes, which ones and on which grounds?

Parla

partsong
partsong's picture
Offline
Joined: 23rd Aug 2010
Posts: 541
RE: Listening Project

Parla:

Those who "have not come to this conclusion", 50m, can they actually claim that there is any composer or any work of music in the more "modern" repertory that can musically stand next to the opus of Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, Schubert or Brahms or Wagner and, if yes, which ones and on which grounds?

This is an old argument of yours Parla, and one we have heard often. 50ml, Craig, Brumas and others are right (and I did say to you on the Pole Dancer thread that it would be nice if you could leave those of us who wish to participate in the listening project free to do so).

Not wanting to sound pedantic Parla, but one of the fundamental rights of learners in classrooms or indeed in any institution is the right to learn without interference/disruption. It feels to me that you are trying your hardest to disrupt this debate. I for one feel that I am learning and enjoying this ongoing project.

Chris, Bazza, Brumas, Graham, myself and others have bravely soldiered on ignoring the interruptions, for the most part.

So, once again, with respect - can you leave us to get on with what we are doing? It really would be appreciated. And, I repeat, you can always start a thread on Beethoven's Sonata in G.

And now, back to the music...