Listening Project
Thu, Mar 14 2013, 8:31PM
#2
RE: Schubert's 10th - Part II
The question is: do reed stops go out of tune more easily than the others?
Funny: they don't, it's the other way around. When there are changes in temperature the reeds stay rather stable, while the rest of the pipework (the "labial" pipes) doesn't. It has something to do with the difference between a vibrating column of air that's much more sensitive to temperature changes than a vibrating reed.
Still organists mostly talk about "the reeds that are out of tune", and that's because the reed stop make only say 10% of all organ stops. So it's easier to tune the reeds to the rest than everything else to the reeds.
Sun, Mar 17 2013, 1:26AM
#3
RE: Listening Project
I jumped the gun a bit and have been listening to Birtwistle's Tragoedia played by the Ensemble InterContemporain under Pierre Boulez. Sounds a terrific work but this version is far too polite. I have read that the work has "refined violence" and is "an earthy drama" but you wouldn't guess that from Boulez. He seems more interested in pointing up the work's lyrical aspects which prevail in the latter stages. Has anyone given the piece a more brutal recording?
Hopefully Chris will explain what the various section headings mean. They are all Greek to me. :-)
Sun, Mar 17 2013, 10:58AM
#4
RE: Listening Project
Bazza, et al. I'll be back on Tuesday: περιμένετε. :-)
Sun, Mar 17 2013, 11:11AM
#5
RE: Listening Project
Till Chris gives you (and us) his own account, let me offer you mine on Birtwistle's "masterpiece":
As for the performances, there is the definitive recording by the Melos Ensemble (which commissioned the work), now as a part of 11-CD box by EMI, under the name "Melos Ensemble: Music among Friends". There is a deleted recording, on Decca, conducted by the composer and another also deleted recording with L. Foster. I don't have the last two, but I don't believe you'll find any sort of brutality or violence in the Melos. Boulez is the best available recording overall (on DG).
As for the "all Greek to you": The title itself is taken directly by the Greek word "Τραγωδία", which could be properly spelled "Tragoodia", since the middle vowel is the omega (the big o, like two o=ω) vis a vis the omikron (the small o=ο).
The titles he used in his work are parts of the Ancient Greek Tragedies and could be very briefly explained as such:
- Prologos (Prologue in English) is the distinctive part that introduces the audience to the subject of the play.
- Parodos (it could be translated literally as "passage") is the part where the Chorus sings its first strophes (poetic words in rhythm; antistrophe is the part of Chorus moving to the opposite direction, namely from right to left), commenting on the development of the plot.
- Episodion (literally "episode", in English) is the distinctive part of the plot, which is unfolded between two parts of the Chorus (Chorica).
- Stasimon (it could be translated as the "stand") is the Song of the Chorus, which stops the development of the plot, so that the Chorus can make its (wise) comments.
- Exodos (literally the "exit") is the final part of the Play, where the Chorus make its final wise conclusions and finishes the work.
The Anapaistos & Antistrophe have to deal with the poetic writing and not the unfolding the plot.
However, the issue is, as long as the work of Birtwistle is an abstract work, that both the title of the work and the names of its parts are practically irrelevant. So, simply indulge in the musical material than the descriptive one.
Finally, ancient Greek Tragedies are characterised by their subtlety and lyrical aspects rather than their violent (or much worse the brutal) ones.
Parla
P.S.: Very good your Greek, Chris!
Sun, Mar 17 2013, 12:41PM
#6
RE: Listening Project
No comments on the Humoresque by Schumann? That's a pity, cause what a lovely piece this is! Not quite the superficial, witty kind of music you'd assume it to be based upon the title, but dealing more with humour in its general sense, it's a fascinating journey through a myriad of moods and affections. I suppose the Horrowitz version is my favourite.
And now on to Birtwistle. I only know his Punch and Judy, which I found in bad taste, so I'm curious to see if I can stomach the Tragoedia better!
Sun, Mar 17 2013, 3:59PM
#7
RE: Listening Project
περιμένετε.
Κοιτάζοντας προς τα εμπρός για να!
Sun, Mar 17 2013, 6:21PM
#8
RE: Listening Project
"Κοιτάζοντας προς τα εμπρός για να"...what? (You need a verb, Bazza. Hopefully, something to make some sense with "περιμένετε" of Chris).
Parla
Sun, Mar 17 2013, 6:29PM
#9
RE: Listening Project
Brumas, Schumann's Humoresque is one of the master gems of the composer, overshadowed somehow from his large-scale piano works, but a gem anyway.
Some of the more recent recordings, which make full justice to the work, are: a) Anderszewski on Virgin, b) Kyril Gerstein on Myrios, c) A. Schiff on Ecm (on a 2-CD recital), d) Philippe Cassard on Ambroisie, e) A. Hewitt on Hyperion and f) the "well-kept secret" of Finghin Collins on Claves.
I hope you may have the chance to trace some of them, in one or the other way. They all enjoy first class recordings, which enable the work to shine in very warm and idiomatic performances.
Parla
Sun, Mar 17 2013, 8:38PM
#10
RE: Listening Project
Δεν είστε οι μόνοι έξυπνοι εδώ, όμως σκέφτηκα ότι αυτό ήταν ένα φόρουμ μουσικής.
Sun, Mar 17 2013, 9:24PM
#11
RE: Listening Project
Δεν είστε οι μόνοι έξυπνοι εδώ, όμως σκέφτηκα ότι αυτό ήταν ένα φόρουμ μουσικής.
Ένα ηλίθιο λάθος. Είναι ένα μέρος για μαλάκες να αναδείξουν!
Mon, Mar 18 2013, 4:00AM
#12
RE: Listening Project
Αυτό είναι πολύ διασκεδαστικό.
Mon, Mar 18 2013, 4:48AM
#13
RE: Listening Project
Yes indeed! This is..."πολύ διασκεδαστικό" (or even "αστείο"). However, who's trolling the forum now? By the way, Bazza, when the mods realise the (very) foul language you used, they won't be happy at all. Till, they find their Greek translator, you can keep on...
Parla
P.S.: Μηδέν άγαν!
Mon, Mar 18 2013, 5:27AM
#14
RE: Listening Project
Myden agan in Grekys tonge we rede,
But reason and wytte wantythe theyr provynciall,
When wylfulnes ys vicar generall.
Mon, Mar 18 2013, 6:15AM
#15
RE: Listening Project
Just to calm the hyperactive discography, the recording of Tragoedia conducted by Lawrence Foster is the Melos Ensemble one, and the Decca was a reissue of Boulez's (not of course conducted by the composer, who is not exactly given to conducting). I have a nice reissue of the Melos from 2004, coupled with some great Maxwell Davies from the days before he went soft; it contains Birtwistle's own notes on Tragoedia, which are quite interesting ("the work is intended to bridge the gap between 'absolute music' and theatre music"). I've heard the Boulez once, and must say I rather share Bazza's view.
Thanks for your comprehensive reply 50m.
You wrote "What we really need is Chailly performing it in Leipzig, or Thielemann in Dresden!" I suppose we can hope! But have you heard the Mackerras recording? It misses one of thr great European orchestras but has a great conductor at the helm, and it shows! I downloaded just the symphony from Hyperion for about €4.
About the Bartholomée version you wrote: "those forte-fanfares work like annoying interruptions, while in Bartholomée's version they're interwoven in the movement and they don't disrupt the motion." The problem for me is the lack of motion in that movement! Much slower than any andante. Incidentally Mackerras takes it at almost exactly the same tempo as Marriner. You can hear short extracts on the Hyperion website.
Looking at the MS I started with the slow movement, which is almost possible to follow. The last movement is such a mess it is impossible to understand (for me at least). It didn't look so bad at a first glance! I can only second your admiration for Newbould's efforts, without however finding either his or the 4-movement version completely satisfying. In a way I like your idea that the scherzo music was perhaps not intended for the symphony, but once one starts arguing like that, where does it end?
Finally another quick question. You wrote: "Fact IS of course that the reeds of big french cathedral organs ARE mostly out of tune, but that has more to do with lack of finances for maintenance than with a deliberate attempt to get more power out of the instruments..." The question is: do reed stops go out of tune more easily than the others.Thanks again for an interesting discussion!Chris
Chris A.Gnostic