Listening Project

563 replies [Last post]
BazzaRiley
BazzaRiley's picture
Offline
Joined: 14th Mar 2010
Posts: 314
RE: Listening Project

der singende teufel wrote:

Αυτό είναι πολύ διασκεδαστικό.

:-D

BazzaRiley
BazzaRiley's picture
Offline
Joined: 14th Mar 2010
Posts: 314
RE: Listening Project

der singende teufel wrote:
"the work is intended to bridge the gap between 'absolute music' and theatre music"

Thanks for quoting this. I assumed from the title and movement headings that Sir Harry was aiming for a sort of Greek drama structure although probably with no specific plot in mind. I must try and find the Melos recording. It is on the NML - but not available where I am. :(

Ian Paternoster
Ian Paternoster's picture
Offline
Joined: 13th Apr 2011
Posts: 57
RE: Listening Project

Φαντάζομαι ότι είναι καιρός άκουσα κάποια μουσική, κάτι προς την κατεύθυνση της όπερας ή ίσως κάποιο ή κάποια μπαρόκ χορωδιακή μουσική. Ό, τι κάνω θα είναι καλύτερα από ό, τι είναι εδώ και ειδικά ο εκφοβισμός και συρτή που συνεχίζεται εδώ. Αγαπώ τη μουσική, ωστόσο, μισώ τους ανθρώπους απορριπτικοί. Ξέρω ότι θα ακούτε κάποιο Britten Benjamen.

__________________

A painter paints pictures on canvas. But musicians paint their pictures on silence. ~Leopold Stokowski.

Music washes away from the soul the dust of everyday life. ~Berthold Auerbach.

Music is the poetry of the air. ~Richter.

parla
parla's picture
Offline
Joined: 6th Aug 2011
Posts: 2089
RE: Listening Project

Cut it, Ian. Your "text" does not make any possible sense in any language (please avoid these direct Google or sort of translations). You may rewrite your text in the language(s) you command...if you must.

Sir Harry might not "aim for a sort of Greek drama structure", but he does not exactly explained why he borrowed the titles of the structure of the Ancient Greek Tragedy and the actual title of his work. Is this the way to "bridge the gap between absolute music and theatre music"?

CraigM
CraigM's picture
Offline
Joined: 2nd Oct 2010
Posts: 198
RE: Listening Project RE: Listening Project

parla wrote:
(please avoid these direct Google or sort of translations).

..because that would be as bad as doing a cut and paste job from Wikipedia and passing it off as your own orginal thoughts. But I'm sure no-one would be such a charlatan as to do that, would they?

parla
parla's picture
Offline
Joined: 6th Aug 2011
Posts: 2089
RE: Listening Project

I'm just a mere messenger, Craig. There is no author called Parla to claim "original thoughts". Any "originality" (or not) can be credited only to the pseudonyms we use here. 

Parla

BazzaRiley
BazzaRiley's picture
Offline
Joined: 14th Mar 2010
Posts: 314
RE: Listening Project RE: Listening Project

CraigM wrote:
..because that would be as bad as doing a cut and paste job from Wikipedia and passing it off as your own orginal thoughts. But I'm sure no-one would be such a charlatan as to do that, would they?

LOL!

der singende teufel
der singende teufel's picture
Offline
Joined: 2nd Jun 2012
Posts: 66
RE: Listening Project

Bazza, on the plot/content front that is close to what HB says. Sorry that I followed you in jumping ahead of discussion of the piece, to which I'd like to contribute if it doesn't bring too much grief! The note is just interesting, in view of your comments, and it may be out there somewhere on the Web. It's certainly not a substitute for listening to Tragoedia. Ian, hope you also get the chance or time.

partsong
partsong's picture
Offline
Joined: 23rd Aug 2010
Posts: 585
RE: Listening Project

By God, this Greche, pleynly at a woord
Is dusty scholarship nat worth a toord,
Min eyes aken at this drasty speche
Little learninge means I kan not reche;
Thou woldst mak of me a fool
Who never studeyde this konnyng at schoole:
'Tis nothing short of vileyne I trow
To tak this langage so highbrowe.
Foryeve this humble clerk his dowt
 -To pretendye to Greche giveth some some clout.
In troth this knavery is daungerous
Yet ther are some right vertuous.
An end of this wofull debate,
-There's some who google to translate!

(Adapted liberally from Chaucer)

BazzaRiley
BazzaRiley's picture
Offline
Joined: 14th Mar 2010
Posts: 314
RE: Listening Project

der singende teufel wrote:

Bazza, on the plot/content front that is close to what HB says. Sorry that I followed you in jumping ahead of discussion of the piece, to which I'd like to contribute if it doesn't bring too much grief! 

It's okay, we're in the right week now!

c hris johnson
c hris johnson's picture
Online
Joined: 8th Sep 2010
Posts: 793
RE: Listening Project

Sorry everyone: I have been away when I should have been here to give an introduction to the Birtwistle.  It’s been the final Carnival weekend here in Greece. My request (περιμένετε) for you to wait, seems to have instead led to a burst of Greek scholarship - I had no idea how many hellenophiles we had on the forum. And it all stemmed from Bazza’s ‘It’s all Greek to me’.  Of course, in Greece people need an alternative and they say ‘It’s all Chinese to me’. How many members will be ready to respond I wonder!  (Just joking!)

Now to Birtwistle: first the title and then the music.

It’s worth mentioning the title because it gives some clues as to Birtwistle’s way of thinking. Parla, you are quite correct of course in saying that "the title itself is taken directly from the Greek word ‘Τραγωδία’, which could be properly spelled ‘Tragoodia’ and which means tragedy”. But it would be wrong to think of this as a mistake by Birtwistle. Although he borrowed the conventions Parla mentions from Greek tragedy (see below), he didn’t consider his work a tragedy but more a song - τραγούδι.  And not just any song: he specifically mentions the ‘Goat Song’, (from ‘τράγοσ’, goat).  Now this is the fascinating bit: why his interest in the ‘goat song’? You Greek scholars will know much more about the origins of ‘Goat Song’ than I do but for some reason, goat song or Tragoedia, is thought to be the origin of the word tragedy.  My guess is that Birtwistle wasn’t so interested in the scholarly etymology as much as enjoying the triple meaning of his title, and perhaps also the suggestion (in more modern novels) that the goat song was associated with the myth of Orpheus - an increasing obsession of his at the time!

Enough of the title! Now to the music.

Bazza and DST seem to be disappointed by the lack of violence in the Boulez recording (the version I know best).  I’m not quite sure where the expectation of violence comes from (except perhaps the false association with tragedy). I’ve heard the Melos version some years ago and don’t remember it being more violent (in agreement with Parla). More, I don’t think the music is supposed to be violent, but it’s real chamber music. It’s not like Earth Dances, nor indeed much like Punch and Judy, for all that the latter used some of the music!  To me it is the balance of the lyrical with the ‘primitive’ that gives the work its character. Perhaps significantly, it also looks forward to his Nenia - the Death of Orpheus of a few years later.

All it gets from tragedy (IMO) are the sectional titles and, the formal structure which is cyclical like Greek tragedy (see Parla’s post above: thank you for that Parla).

So, after the prologue (1), there is a statement of the diverse musical material (Parados) (2), which has its counterpart in the concluding Exodos (8). Then the first Episodion (3), a lyrical, song like section, with its lively (if hardly violent) opposite, the first antistrophe (4).  At the centre is (5) the Stasimon (“the Song of the Chorus, which stops the development of the plot, so that the Chorus can make its (wise) comments”.). The pattern is reversed with the second episodion (6) a relatively violent movement balanced by the lyrical antistrophe (7). Finally the equivalent of the chorus summing-up, in the Exodus (8).

Does any of this stuff matter to the listener? I must say I really enjoyed this music the first time I heard it in concert some years ago, whilst knowing nothing of the above.  Since I’ve got to know it, and Birtwistle's music in general, better I’ve found analysis fascinating but ultimately unimportant. Just enjoy the music!

Chris

__________________

Chris A.Gnostic

BazzaRiley
BazzaRiley's picture
Offline
Joined: 14th Mar 2010
Posts: 314
RE: Listening Project

c hris johnson wrote:
I’m not quite sure where the expectation of violence comes from...

From listening to the music, Chris! There's clearly more there than the well-mannered Boulez gives us.

c hris johnson wrote:
Does any of this stuff matter to the listener?

Well Sir Harry gave the movements titles so they must matter. He also gave the work a form and that matters as well. I still presume that the titles and form follow the outline of a Greek drama so might need to so some "further reading"! ;-)

der singende teufel
der singende teufel's picture
Offline
Joined: 2nd Jun 2012
Posts: 66
RE: Listening Project

Partsonge, it dooth rejoysen me to here

Thy murye voys, that deyde almost for fere.

Me thoughte my belle wolde be sone yronge

With voyses claterande in Grekyssh tonge,

And one ther was that bolde wordes dyd crake

And semed lyke to a demoniake.

Such dyvers speches may no gode portende,

But prechen Antechryst and worldes ende.

And certes, were oure tyme here nat schort

I wolde me ful plesauntly disporte

T'endyte another Tale of Caunterburye,

The whyche wolde be passynge glad and murye

Touchynge a GOOGLERE, or eke a TROLLE,

That overmuche hadde dronken of the bolle

And googled tyl he fer was out of mynde

And nyghe hymselfe ygoogled hadde blynde.

But syn this worlde is fast now al ygo,

Lat othere pennis prate of endeles wo

And speke we of that parfyt gentyl knyght,

Sir Harrison de Birtwistle yhyght.

And avauntours with al theyr folysshe showe -

Bid hem gode daye, with murie synge cokkowe!

 

c hris johnson
c hris johnson's picture
Online
Joined: 8th Sep 2010
Posts: 793
RE: Listening Project

Hi Bazza!

We wrote

 

Chris: "I’m not quite sure where the expectation of violence comes from..."

Bazza: "From listening to the music, Chris! There's clearly more there than the well-mannered Boulez gives us."

 

Well, you can sample each of the movements in the Melos recording, on Amazon at:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Icon-Melos-Ensemble-Complete-Recordings/dp/B004H...

I fear your expectations will again be disappointed!* I have never been convinced that the music is predominantly violent. Neither the live performance I heard years ago (Sinfonietta/Atherton?) nor the two recordings suggest otherwise to me. Do you know Nenia - The Death of Orpheus?

As to whether a structural analysis matters for the listener, you wrote "Well Sir Harry gave the movements titles so they must matter. He also gave the work a form and that matters as well."

Well, certainly they must have mattered to the composer. The question is how important they are for the listener.  I gave as much information as I could for anyone who wants it. I remember Schoenberg wrote "I cannot often enough warn against the overrating of analysis since it invariably leads to what I have always fought against: the knowledge of how something is made; whereas I have always tried to promote the knowledge of what something is," I don't feel as strongly as that but in the end I suppose each of us has to decide for himself how much analysis is worthwhile for a particular piece of music. I rather agree with DST: "It's certainly not a substitute for listening to Tragoedia."  

Somehow, I think music in the first place has to stand on its own feet, and Birtwistle's music does this superbly well for me.

Try the Melos anyway! I have to do my Schumann report next!

Chris

*The most noticeable difference is the more 'open' sound of the Melos' horn player.

__________________

Chris A.Gnostic

BazzaRiley
BazzaRiley's picture
Offline
Joined: 14th Mar 2010
Posts: 314
RE: Listening Project

Chris, obviously it depends on the listener. To me it is important, to you it isn't. Not really much to argue about really. :-)

As for the Melos samples, the most noticeable difference for me is how much quicker the performance is. No Boulezian pipe and slippers here! Much more dramatic, biting and baleful. Thanks for finding the samples.

Now someone needs to upload the whole performance onto YouTube. Any volunteers?