Listening Project
Mon, Apr 1 2013, 9:14AM
#2
RE: Listening Project
Brumas,
It's not a problem for me but I wonder, since it is Easter in many parts of the world (but not here!), whether we should give another week for Sybil and start Messaien off next Sunday. There are not many of us about this weekend!
Whatever you think best is fine for me.
Chris
Mon, Apr 1 2013, 4:24PM
#3
RE: Listening Project
About 7-8 years ago I went through a mad phase of listening to Messiaen organ music when Priory were rereleasing Gillian Weir's cycle. I would have to say that L'apparition de l'eglise eternelle is probaby about the "easiest" work across the 6 CDs. But also one of the best. There is not much music in the piece but the repetitive series of chords are so monumental that one is pinned to the back of ones seat. I can only imagine what this must sound like played live in a cathedral. Surely no sound system can relicate the sound of 16' pipes blaring out such bass notes! I do wonder, however, if Weir could have started more quietly and built thus more impressively to the grand climax?
Mon, Apr 1 2013, 5:11PM
#4
RE: Listening Project
Yeah, things seem to be a tad quiet around here, so let's extend the Messiaen for a week, and anyone who wants to comment on the Cant de la Sibil·la is of course free to do so as well.
On the latter: I think you're spot-on, Chris. With this kind of early material, one can hardly make a distinction between composition and performance. It predates the modern work-concept, and thus the kind of almost neurotic concern for 'authenticity' by staying as close as possible to the written sources that dominated the early music movement in the 60's and 70's is completely misguided. To be authentic with this kind of material, literally performing a score is precisely what one must not do, since that is not what these manuscripts were for. Luckily, it seems the early music movement seems to be comming to terms with this (see graindelavoix for instance).
Bazza: I'd love to hear Messiaen's apparition played live some day. As you say, it's not his most refined or sophisticated work M has written for organ, but it has a primal power that blows me away every time.
Mon, Apr 1 2013, 5:36PM
#5
RE: Listening Project
Brumas, the "authenticity" card, I believe, is strongly observed by Saval and his group in the existing recording of "Cant de la Sibil.le". Not as for the (practically) non-existing score, but as for the proper performance.
I guess the issue of the "repetitive series of chords" of Messiaen's "L'apparition de l'eglise eternelle" would be a subject of the thread on "Repeats". I would love to see whether Jane perceives them as "so monumental". I don't. They are impressive as a listening experience, but do we need this excess of whatever might be considered as a composition?
Parla
P.S.: Chris, I trust you are based somewhere in the very South of the Continent. Are they going to celebrate there their Easter on May 5?
Mon, Apr 1 2013, 5:48PM
#6
RE: Listening Project
In Messiaen, and this piece in particular, excess is not only neccesary, but essential. Messiaen strove for éblouissement, dazzlement in his music, like an aural equivalent to looking into the sun shining through stained glass.
Mon, Apr 1 2013, 6:15PM
#7
RE: Listening Project
"Eblouissement" ou perturbation, Brumas?
Parla
Mon, Apr 1 2013, 6:24PM
#8
RE: Listening Project
Eblouissement.
Mon, Apr 1 2013, 9:39PM
#9
RE: Listening Project
Bazza: I'd love to hear Messiaen's apparition played live some day...it has a primal power that blows me away every time.
Indeed - and at just 9-10 minutes it doesn't outstay its welcome. I was wrong, by the way, to suggest that a performance should start quieter in order to build to a more cataclysmic apex: this youtube performance comes with score and one can see that the opening is marked single forte.
Livre was always the piece that I thought showed Messiaen's organ music in its best light. Any other preferences?
Tue, Apr 2 2013, 8:41AM
#10
RE: Listening Project
O.K., Brumas. Bouleversement est l' alternative.
(You see I'm not dazzled by M.).
Parla
Thu, Apr 4 2013, 4:18PM
#11
RE: Messiaen: APPARITION DE L'EGLISE ETERNELLE
Early Messiaen maybe, but what a stunning piece this is!
How to describe it? To these ears, and within the limits of my French:
Eblouisement, yes; perturbation, certainly not!
Bouleversant, indeed, but bouleversement, definitely not!
What a glorious vision of the mystical 'church' appearing and then vanishing before our ears.
The chord progressions are amazing, and (pace Bazza) not at all repetitive. Indeed the chords in the sequences are almost every one different, and this astonishing richness of chords and their progression, combined with the unequal bar lengths and the carefully, meticulously marked changes of registration makes for an overwhelmingly powerful approach to the blaze of C major at the climax.
The dynamics are very difficult to work out. As you say Bazza it starts f, and it ends pp. But how to gauge the difference between pp and f, compared with that between f and fffff at the climax! And then in the initial 'ascent' to the first climax at 2'28", we go from f to ff, then to piu ff, and again piu ff, before going back to f. Very precise. It must be as much to do with the sort of sound as to the actual volume. I think Latry judges it perfectly.
Interesting that only the pedal moves in short notes, a sort of pulse beneath the monumental chords (8 or 9 notes each, 10 at the climax). And that climax, the C major chord held for more than 20"! Brilliant white light in Messiaen's tonal scheme, and doesn't it sound it! And Bazza, even if a first rate hi-fi can perhaps cope with the the 16' pipes, what hope is there for the 32' Soubasse. I too would love to hear it in Notre Dame, though I must say the Latry CD sounds superb on my hi-fi!
Then back to near silence, where even the final pp notes are quite dense chords underpinned by that 'throbbing' bass.
Dazzling indeed!
Incidentally, I strongly recommend the Latry set of Messiaen's complete organ works. With what seems to me a perfect balance between power and refinement, they are giving me enormous pleasure.
Chris
Thu, Apr 4 2013, 5:27PM
#12
RE: Listening Project
"Dazzling", Chris, means, in the best possible case, Impressive. It does not mean great. For those who cannot easily be dazzled by successive and relentless chords (of any value or validity), it can also sound as "magnificent...noise".
Parla
Thu, Apr 4 2013, 5:57PM
#13
RE: Listening Project
Successive yes; relentless, No!
Anyway, it seems you now accept 'Eblouisement' ???!!!
(in moderation at least)
Chris
Thu, Apr 4 2013, 6:33PM
#14
RE: Messiaen: APPARITION DE L'EGLISE ETERNELLE
The chord progressions are amazing, and (pace Bazza) not at all repetitive.
But, Chris, you have to remember that Messiaen desribed himself not as a composer but as a rhythmatician and in that repect those monument chords are repetitive.
Thu, Apr 4 2013, 7:14PM
#15
RE: Messiaen: APPARITION DE L'EGLISE ETERNELLE
...... as for example in Bach's chorale harmonisations? I'm unsure really what you mean Bazza., except that the piece is predominantly chordal. Harmonically the chords are not repetitive, the phrase patterns are not particularly repetitive (Must I offer an analysis of the subtle variations in phrase lengths?). Cumulative yes, and hypnotic perhaps?
Chris
Parla wrote:
"By all means, it is a wonderful listening experience (thanks to Savall's scope and his late wife's mesmerising voice), but I trust that's all."
Indeed Parla! I'm not quite sure what "that's all" means though. Certainly the major part of the listening experience is due to Savall and his wife. He must have an obsession with this music. He's recorded at least half a dozen versions, each different. I imagine it being like that too even in the 'original' performances. The simple musical template must have been clothed differently each Christmas. Depending on the 'music director' there must have been some imaginative recreations and some dull ones. I like to think of Savall's performances as being something like the imaginative ones of the time. Luckily, we are spared the 'dull' ones!
In a way, it's not quite right hearing it on a recording exactly the same each time we play it, but when it's so beautifully done who would complain! That's all!
Chris
Chris A.Gnostic