Listening Project

Bazza, I don't disagree with any of that.  It's the 'repetitive' I dont see. The harmonic shifts are superbly arranged and contribute powerfully to the dynamic build up towards the climax (and back) - but are almost completely devoid of repetition. Masterly!

In the same rhythm. Messiaen would later learn to live up to his "rhythmatician" claim. For better or worse is another story! :)

Parla, that was an excellent idea: playing those chords through on the piano is indeed deeply rewarding. What chords, and what progressions. Just look at the score too - not at all in 'the same rhythm'. Of course it can't be played properly on the piano: many of the chords have some notes tied into the next chord whilst others move on. It needs a sustaining instrument, though one instrument to a note (say a string octet) would be interesting.  

There's a thought; perhaps a good future subject for this thread might be a comparison of the organ and orchestral versions of L'Ascension, or at least one of its movements.

Anyway, the bottom line for me is that, once again, this thread has led me to look more closely at pieces of music, some new to me, and some that I thought I knew. I would never have gone into such detail with this piece otherwise and I'm very glad I have.

Pity though that only a few of us are commenting now. I hope a few others will be revived after the Easter break!

Chris

The Messiaen has drawn some perceptive comments, so just let me add my twopence.

It is a chorale, harmonically dense, not melodic at all, but there is a structure. Glad that the music is there to follow on that youtube link. I have two versions on CD - Edgar Krapp on Wergo and Jennifer Bate on Regis, and I have just listened to Krapp with the music (I only have two hard copy organ pieces of Messiaen's and besides this one it's the communion meditation Le Banquet Celeste which could not form a stronger contrast, so beautiful and meditative is it with an ecstatic ending).

Re; the structure Chris, if I may, the opening 4 bars are repeated immediately, and stated again at the start of sections 2 and 3, which comes towards the end. I love the bare fifth progression on the last line also. So it's a straightforward 3 section piece, with development - digression even - in the central section. And a wind down at the end of the last short section.

Perhaps not an easy piece to access if it's a first Messiaen listen for anyone - the density of the chords is maybe a bit of an acquired taste, but as others here have said, as a monumental vision of the eternal church it works for me, and a bold statement of his religious faith. 

That Messiaen could also be extremely gentle is evident elsewhere in his music - e.g. the first movement of the Quatour - Liturgy of Crystal - where the title says it all. This is music of real delicacy.

Mark

Chris: What a glorious vision of the mystical 'church' appearing and then vanishing before our ears. Agreed.

Brumas - primal power and dazzling - agreed.

Bazza - monumental - agreed.

Parla I don't find the piece perturbing - but each to his own!

Had a listen to the Schumann Humoreske. Well, I like it but I can understand the points raised. Naupilus spoke earlier about the bewildering variety of moods in Schumann's piano music, and Brumas has said here that this piece has a myriad of moods in it. Chris has said it sounds quasi-improvisatory. I'm in agreement with all those three really, though I don't see the mood changes as a stumbling block.

Mood wise though, it seems to basically have two types, the lovely slow contemplative adagio melodies and the 'manic' contrasting sections. Yes there are different moods within those two. The bold juxtapositions are also there in Kreisleriana which is round about the same opus area (op.16).

Thanks for the link onto the text of the music, so I opted for Horowitz as I personally like his rendition of Kreisleriana. I wasn't disappointed as I think he has the feel of Schumann.

The youtube version of the Horowitz splits it into three, the third section being the shortest and starting with the march-like section (page 22 on that link - 'Mit einegem Pomp'). Overall I found this 'movement' actually the most rewarding, because the adagio mood predominates, before a very short and manic coda. Not so sure it really needed that coda...

Mark

I have just got around to re-listening to a couple of Kraus symphonies - both with slow intros - written before the 1783 C minor we discussed earlier in the year. The Symphony in C major, VB.138, "Violin obligato" (1779) has the solo fiddle enter in the intro with a chromatic minor key passage which then returns in modified form at the end of the development when the soloist reappears. This dark passage serves as a link back to the allegro/recapitulation. Then in the 1781 Symphony in C major, VB.139, Kraus follows the C minor opening of his slow introduction with a chromatic repeated note passage. On first hearing this sounds transitory - but both first and second subjects of the allegro are based on repeated notes; as are the first and second subjects of the finale.

VB.139, by the way, has struck me afresh as an amazing work. Less than ten minutes long and yet a fully fledged three-movement symphony.

My own thoughts on hearing Schubert 10 again:

The Andante (adagio in the Bartholemew version) must rank with the composer's finest slow movements (along with those from the last quartet, the quintet and the Great C major) and the rest naturally pales a little beside it. I like the first movement but there is not enough drama in the development. Schubert would have most certainly developed matters further here. The finale (not a proper scherzo as in duple time) would have worked better in a binary form similar to the finale of Sibelius's third where, instead of the regular recapitulation, we get a broadening and a peroration more worthy of a symphonic ending. I thought Newbould was heading in such a direction when the minor key fugato began (6:03) but he seemed to have lost courage.