Most important living composer.
Tue, Jul 24 2012, 9:33PM
#2
RE: Most important living composer.
I agree with the above comment from dst regarding the unfortunate fact that we have been hindered once again on this thread by the urge, not so much to circle the mulberry or the drain, but to beat our heads against a wall as we repeat over and over: "other people have other opinions". I suggest the hinderence change his name to ParPar, a nice onomatopoeic word that suggests Mr. Toad racing through the countryside, with utter disregard for the views of others.
Chris, of the Lachenmann discs I have I would recommend a recording on Montaigne which has the string quartet 'reigen seliger geister' and a piece for string quartet and orchestra called 'tanzsuite mit deutschlandied'. On Col Legno there is a disc which contains the string quartet 'Gran Torso' and a piece for two guitars called 'Salut for Caudwell'. I also like the revised version of his opera 'Das Madchen mit den Schwefelholzern' (ECM).
Tue, Jul 24 2012, 10:13PM
#3
RE: Most important living composer.
Today I listened to three quartets from the last few years: Xenakis's 'Tetras', Carter's fifth quartet and Gorecki's third quartet (not bad company for a gentle stroll to college).
I know the Xenakis piece best and for me it continues to wear very well. I certainly cannot hum it but I have heard it enough times to now know the journey and appreciate the views along the way. I think it helps that the Jack Quartet (Mode) play their absolute hearts out and thrive on the piece's energy and interplay. It is exciting music and for me is always worth my time.
The Carter somehow seems much more traditional. It is a very fine piece no doubt but currently I am not sure it isn't just a little too sophisticated for my current mood - which is entirely my fault, not the composer's problem.
As for the Gorecki it's a piece I have only heard twice. I have no real problem with minimalism (or holy minimalism) just as long as it still connects with me as a listener. I'll know the answer to that in a year or so when I have heard it enough times to decide if it is for me or not.
What is the point of the above in the conext of this thread? I would only contirbute that for me the question is worth answering if I can add the words 'for me'.
For me personally a composer such as Wolfgang Rihm is important. some of his compositions I really have issues with (Quid est Deus springs to mind) but his best music is fascinating (I am very grateful to a fellow forum member on another forum who illustarted the line from Beethoven via Mahler to some of the gestures in Rihm's symphonies).
One more work that I feel might well stand the test of time is Anders Hillborg's 'Eleven Gates' which is part symphonic poem, part concerto for orchestra (in a single movement). The structure is quite simple but the use of orchestra extremely engaging.
Tue, Jul 24 2012, 11:25PM
#4
RE: Most important living composer.
Mark, I don't "espouse opinions as facts"; I'm looking for the facts (the data, the basis) on which we build our opinions. If everything was opinions, there will be nothing and we won't be able to communicate, agree (or disagree). So, whether we both express our opinions, there is a truth, a basic knowledge, a fact that we have to rely upon.
So, which is the basis, the fact(s) on which you claim that these composers extended the musical language into new areas of subtlety(!) and, since when, if there is such a thing, "subtlety" constitutes a (musical) factor for raising a composer to the level of previous ones, who composed numerous monumental Syumphonies, String Quartets, Orchestral and Choral Works etc, that have been established in the repertory and the History of Classical Music. Do we have any single work after Shostakovich, which can be actually memorable, not simply listenable (and enjoyable to some)? Any monumental Symphony, even Chamber or Instrumental work? A work to remember and to refer to.
"A comparable addition" does not constitute a musical factor (or actually fact) that Messiaen's Organ work (or Langlais') is at the same league as Bach's or Frankc's.
Again, how these terms "subtlety, sensitivity, delicacy" can be proven as musical factors in assessing the value of these composers and how the "brilliant use of form" is recognised beyond the few fans and loyals, in a tangible way?
As for the "technique" of Messiaen, let's leave it. An "explanation" is by default a justification (or an effort to this end). Great music language does not need explanation. It's there to identify, admire, appreciate, embrace.
Having said that, I don't mean we should not listen, follow what's going on in the music scene of the contemporary music. If you may enjoy certain aspects of it (subtlety
Parla
Tue, Jul 24 2012, 11:31PM
#5
RE: Most important living composer.
Mark, I don't "espouse opinions as facts"; I'm looking for the facts (the data, the basis) on which we build our opinions. If everything was opinions, there will be nothing and we won't be able to communicate, agree (or disagree). So, whether we both express our opinions, there is a truth, a basic knowledge, a fact that we have to rely upon.
So, which is the basis, the fact(s) on which you claim that these composers extended the musical language into new areas of subtlety(!) and, since when, if there is such a thing, "subtlety" constitutes a (musical) factor for raising a composer to the level of previous ones, who composed numerous monumental Syumphonies, String Quartets, Orchestral and Choral Works etc, that have been established in the repertory and the History of Classical Music. Do we have any single work after Shostakovich, which can be actually memorable, not simply listenable (and enjoyable to some)? Any monumental Symphony, even Chamber or Instrumental work? A work to remember and to refer to.
"A comparable addition" does not constitute a musical factor (or actually fact) that Messiaen's Organ work (or Langlais') is at the same league as Bach's or Frankc's.
Again, how these terms "subtlety, sensitivity, delicacy" can be proven as musical factors in assessing the value of these composers and how the "brilliant use of form" is recognised beyond the few fans and loyals, in a tangible way?
As for the "technique" of Messiaen, let's leave it. An "explanation" is by default a justification (or an effort to this end). Great music language does not need explanation. It's there to identify, admire, appreciate, embrace.
Having said that, I don't mean we should not listen, follow what's going on in the music scene of the contemporary music. If you may enjoy certain aspects of it (subtlety, sincerity, etc.), go for it, but you cannot fool yourself that anyone of them can constitute a continuation or equivalent of a Shostakovich and the rest of the established composers of 20th century.
Parla
Wed, Jul 25 2012, 12:05AM
#6
RE: Most important living composer.
Craig, don't judge the world with what's going on in your yard or even your neighbourhood. In UK, and in particular in ROH, they might perform the Turangalila often, but do you have any idea what's the situation in the rest of the world. I haven't seen any live performance anywhere in the quite a few places I have been so far, in most of the continents.
There is about a dozen of commercial recordings of the Turangalila, quite a few with the usual suspects (Nagano, Salonen, Rattle, Tortelier, Previn) and some with less well-known conductors (Wit, Mena Cambreling, Vonk). Do they sell well? In Berlin, in the biggest (and only) Kultur Haus, there was a rather small section on Messiaen, with only a small fraction of the existing recordings, which never managed to be expanded. In US, even worse. In China, or in Asia (the new huge market), forget it (at least for now).
As for the "degradation and alienation", just follow the same experiment that I have done quite a few times, with the same results almost all the time. Call some young or "virgin" listeners of Classical Music and expose them to any contemporary work by Part, Gorecki, etc. Most of them told me, after some minutes or an hour of listening: "If this is Classical Music, I don't want to know or listen anything about it. Listening afterwards to even works by Shostakovich, Bartok or Stravinsky, let alone the Classics, the reaction was quite the opposite. So, if this not at least alienation and, to some extent, degradation...anyway, I'll leave it to the forum to judge.
Parla
Wed, Jul 25 2012, 5:49AM
#7
RE: Most important living composer.
Oh yawn ... As my old dad used to say, "Don't confuse me with the facts, I've made up my mind."
Posters can argue about the merits or otherwise of the Turangalila-Symphony till the cows come home, but assertions that it's "rarely performed" are thoroughly factual and can easily be checked. Those who want to do so might consult
http://www.oliviermessiaen.org/messiaen2index.htm
Click the "News and Concerts" link, scroll down to the foot and you get a clear indication of the recent fortunes of this tragically neglected piece, which has, we're loftily told, all but dropped out of earshot in the great wide world - performances from 2011 (!) onward in the US, Korea, Japan, Spain, Mexico, Finland, Taiwan, Romania and indeed Germany (that's including some scheduled for 2013). Given the demands of rehearsal time and the niche market for ondes martenot players - and pianists who can deal with the demanding solo part - this hardly seems bad going. Messiaen's other music too is not exactly lagging. I'm altogether leaving out the activity in the centenary year of 2008, which was the last time I heard Turangalila live - I'm lucky enough to be within reach of St Louis, where David Robertson conducted it.
The odd and numerous pronouncements in this forum that claim to come from Berlin give, as I'm sure those of us who have experienced it will know, a thoroughly misleading impression of a musically vital and forward-looking national culture. Parla, please, please drop the pseudo-cosmopolitan stuff - it's quite painful. I don't mean to be unkind, but while you knock other posters for not thinking outside their own backyard, your backyard seems to stop at the end of your nose. And that is anatomically tricky.
Wed, Jul 25 2012, 8:15AM
#8
RE:
As for the "degradation and alienation", just follow the same experiment that I have done quite a few times, with the same results almost all the time. Call some young or "virgin" listeners of Classical Music and expose them to any contemporary work by Part, Gorecki, etc. Most of them told me, after some minutes or an hour of listening: "If this is Classical Music, I don't want to know or listen anything about it. Listening afterwards to even works by Shostakovich, Bartok or Stravinsky, let alone the Classics, the reaction was quite the opposite. So, if this not at least alienation and, to some extent, degradation...anyway, I'll leave it to the forum to judge
All this means is that your ‘virgin’ listeners didn’t like whatever Part or Gorecki you played in your experiment, and did like the Shostakovich – it proves absolutely nothing. It possibly demonstrates that the music they heard was less immediately accessible than other music - but since when has accessibility been a criteria for quality? Or a lack of accessibility a sign of ‘degradation’?
And on Gorecki, I seem to recall that the Zinman recoding of his symphony no 3 was one of the highest selling classical CDs ever when it was released. Which is difficult to square with the conclusions you draw from your experiment. Or does the volume of sales of a work constitute factual evidence which you would rather ignore because it conflicts with your (unfounded) prejudice?
Wed, Jul 25 2012, 10:25AM
#9
RE: New music in Berlin
I don't know whether you are still in Berlin Parla. Having had a rather conservative repertoire in the Karajan and (to some extent) Abbado years, things have changed there in recent years.
I just opened the Berlin Philharmonic Digital Concert Hall and the three starred items at the top were:
Opening concert of the season: Lutoslawski Symphony No 3 (+Brahms 2nd concerto)
Next concert: Gershwin, Ives, Georg Antheil, Bernstein
Late night recital (Aimard): Concord Sonata of Ives.
Even in Berlin things are on the move! Just look through the Digital Concert Hall Archive! You will find three recent recordings of the Berlin Philharmonic playing Messiaen, including the Turagalila symphony and another marvellous work, his song cycle, Poemes pour Mi.
Chris
Wed, Jul 25 2012, 10:40AM
#10
RE: Lachenmann
Thanks Arbutus. I will try to look into some of his (Lachenmann's) music. Alone amongst all the composers mentioned in this thread, I've no recollection of having seen his name mentioned in the London musical scene during the years I lived nearby! Maybe blindness on my part; or on theirs?
And thanks everybody for putting me right over new string quartets! It was not my intention to do so, but it seems that making an outrageous statement is agood way to get lots of interesting stuff back! Thanks anyway!
Chris
Wed, Jul 25 2012, 12:52PM
#11
RE: Most important living composer.
Some really interesting names being put forward. Thanks Arbutus and DST - Lachenmann sounds worth exploring. I have to admit he is a new name to me. (You are not alone Chris!)
Some circling of the drain is worrying as we can't seem to get it unblocked, to continue the metaphor.
Parla, I have taken the bait and given you some reasons, albeit fragments, of why I value certain composers. Yet you still seem to be asking for proof. Why 'Beethoven's use of form is brilliant' is a fact and 'Lutoslawski's use of form is brilliant' is an opinion I am at a loss to understand. I'm guessing that the answer will be along the lines of wonderful melodies, brilliant large-scale works, spectacular this and that other factors in LVB, and that Lutoslawski pales by comparison. As I say, a predictability which does seem at times to render mentioning individual works futile.
Your experiment Parla with your listeners; as well as Craig's objections, doesn't prove anything since it is also possible that your listeners in that context may have been pre-influenced by the discussion beforehand. I get fed-up of hearing the phrase 'research has shown...' (in education for example). No it hasn't. One particular piece of research has shown...
That there are some factual inaccuracies in your comments re: Boulez recordings, performances of Turangalila - and nice to see also Lutoslawski 3 Chris being given another outing - I think has been established.
The widespread success of Gorecki 3 (and we have debated this before and Philip has said that it does have some limitations in terms of variety of mood) is one of those surprising things that sometimes happens when an artist has an unexpected breakthrough. It is that which gives me hope re: contemporary music!
Naupilus, what are you doing here? You should be reading the paper. No, not the Sao Paolo Morning Gazette, that paper you tried to read last night and gave up on; 'Post-constructive ethics in post-deconstructive symbology' by some French critic or other. Yes, that one, where every word is 4 syllables long or more. There is nothing for it you are going to have to read it. Even Stockhausen is easy by comparison I know! Carter 3 is the only one of his quartets I know. Powerful stuff. Time for Gorecki quartets!
Still, this debate has been quite stimulating and is managing to stick to the issues and arguments and perceived flaws therein...
Mark
Wed, Jul 25 2012, 1:00PM
#12
RE: Most important living composer.
Well Proms organizers like Turanangalila. 10 times including 2001, 2004, 2008 and if I'm not mistaken yet again this year.
Wed, Jul 25 2012, 7:13PM
#13
RE: Most important living composer.
A 'phone rings.
A cultured, suave voice. The lightest soupçon of an accent - "European"? Its origins are exquisitely, teasingly enigmatic. A hint of unspoken, nay unspeakable, reserves of experience, knowledge, refinement sensory and sensual at once.
"Good evening. I seek auditory virgins. I desire to experiment. I offer the deepest, the richest satisfactions. Dare I hope that at some future date - not too remote, I hope - your proclivities and mine might ... converge?"
[Let no-one, least of all Parla, take offence. This thread may have destroyed my tenuous hold on reality.]
Wed, Jul 25 2012, 7:46PM
#14
RE: Most important living composer.
Naupilus, what are you doing here? You should be reading the paper. No, not the Sao Paolo Morning Gazette, that paper you tried to read last night and gave up on; 'Post-constructive ethics in post-deconstructive symbology' by some French critic or other. Yes, that one, where every word is 4 syllables long or more. There is nothing for it you are going to have to read it. Even Stockhausen is easy by comparison I know! Carter 3 is the only one of his quartets I know. Powerful stuff. Time for Gorecki quartets!
Mark
Mark
Would never be caught dead with a paulista paper! I am adopted carioca while my son is 100% carioca. The samba runs through his veins!
As for reading papers that isn't so bad as writing them. This last month it has been roughly three papers a week. Thankfully it all comes to an end on Friday with a final presentation and submission, followed by 24 hours to explore Madrid. Sunday we are on the plane to Rio, Monday I am back at work. Maybe a week later I'll get to see Clarence Seedorf in action for Botafogo...
Today I kept the walk light - Hindemith's 3rd quartet followed by some Malcolm Arnold...
Wed, Jul 25 2012, 8:19PM
#15
RE: Most important living composer.
What about John Adams, I met him once at the Barbican when he was there to promote his production of El Nino. I thought it was very different.
Turangalia not a well established masterpiece? You must be on a different planet than the rest of us. As for not being performed rarely, I’ve certainly heard it more than once – and I notice that it’s being performed next Saturday at the BBC Proms (which I would have though was a fairly high-profile event). I also notice that this would be the eleventh time in the ROH
The Turangalia symphony is gimmicky at best. The idea of Messiean being a composer of importance is diminishing through the years. The 1950's avant garde pseudo intellectuals and the 1960 - 1970's hippies are having less and less of a say on musical history. Their days, and those of Messiaen are numbered, there is a new order now. Turangalia is childish music from an immature mind.