Most Underrated, Forgotten, and Neglected Masterpieces
Mon, Apr 23 2012, 12:10PM
#2
RE: Most Underrated, Forgotten, and Neglected Masterpieces
I guess Beecham was exercising his humour about Wagner, but, in any case, he was a minority on how one has to treat Wagner.
Most of those who seriously deal with Classical Music will tell you, Troyen, that "The Ring" is the greatest "total work" (the epos, in ancient Greek) in all Music History. Of course, it cannot fit everywhere...
Parla
P.S.: By the way, I am not a Wagnerite, but I have a huge admiration and appreciation for his immense and without precedent or succedent work, as I consider I must have for every great composer.
Mon, Apr 23 2012, 1:56PM
#3
RE: Most Underrated, Forgotten, and Neglected Masterpieces
Most of those who seriously deal with Classical Music will tell you, Troyen, that "The Ring" is the greatest "total work" (the epos, in ancient Greek) in all Music History.
Nonsense.
That the Ring is the greatest 'total work' is certainly an arguable position. It depends one one's point of view. As a lover of the Ring, indeed it's one that I might sympathise with from time to time.
That 'most people' who 'seriously deal with' the subject agree with what is simply an assertion cannot, by definition, be based on any evidence at all.
Mon, Apr 23 2012, 2:04PM
#4
RE: Most Underrated, Forgotten, and Neglected Masterpieces
What evidence do you (or we) need about the "Ring"? The numbers and the superlatives are there. Do we have any other work of that magnitude, with this greatness of music, drama, epos, concept, staging etc. that we may compare or contest?
Parla
Mon, Apr 23 2012, 2:26PM
#5
RE: Most Underrated, Forgotten, and Neglected Masterpieces
I don't need any 'evidence' about the Ring, apart from my own experience of listening to it and seeing it over many years. I know what I think about it, as I dare say you do also.
What I would need evidence of would be a definition of who, and how many, the 'most people' who 'seriously deal with' the subject are, and what, precisely the latter term means - other, of course, than those who simply agree with your assertion in the first place.
Mon, Apr 23 2012, 3:52PM
#6
RE: Most Underrated, Forgotten, and Neglected Masterpieces
I guess Beecham was exercising his humour about Wagner, but, in any case, he was a minority on how one has to treat Wagner.
Most of those who seriously deal with Classical Music will tell you, Troyen, that "The Ring" is the greatest "total work" (the epos, in ancient Greek) in all Music History. Of course, it cannot fit everywhere...
Parla
P.S.: By the way, I am not a Wagnerite, but I have a huge admiration and appreciation for his immense and without precedent or succedent work, as I consider I must have for every great composer.
No, Beecham was swapping Bach for Massenet, actually.
You may be right abou "total" as Wagner can be as boring as exciting. A bit like 21st century television.
Mon, Apr 23 2012, 6:24PM
#7
RE: Most Underrated, Forgotten, and Neglected Masterpieces
Significantly, no one who has challenged Parla's assertion that "The Ring is the greatest total work in all music history" has suggested a challenger. One can argue about what 'total work' means but this is just a diversionary tactic: substitute any reasonable alternative word or phrase and it doesn't become any easier to find a plausible rival.
Those who dislike Wagner may feel annoyed about what they see as the obsessive attention given to his music but anyone who has even begun to scratch the surface of this all-embracing work can hardly fail to notice that however deeply they dig below the surface there is more to be discovered. Hence the ease with which Wagner, and especially 'The Ring' can become an obsession. This alone is indication of something remarkable about the work.
Incidentally, for all his witty rudeness about Wagner, Beecham was a superb conductor of his music.
One thing is certain, 'The Ring' is not one of the 'most underrated, forgotten, and neglected masterpieces'. How did it arrive in this thread? Perhaps because at the mere hint of the word 'Wagner' somewhere in the thread, no-one can resist joining in??
Mon, Apr 23 2012, 7:39PM
#8
RE: Most Underrated, Forgotten, and Neglected Masterpieces
"The Total Work of Art" (Gesamtkunstwerk) was the concept of Wagner's transformation of Opera. So, it is a matter of any musician, fan, scholar, melomane etc. to perceive it or not. In Wagner's mind, the Work of (his) Art should (and could) attain the comprehensive use of all the musical, dramatic and poetic aspects along with the visual ones (staging, lighting, costumes, the venue, etc.).
In this way, all of Wagner's works are unique and beyond any comparison, since none managed to achieve works of such magnitude, integrity, unified musical language, superb development of the comprehensive material, innovative and creative orchestration wholly integrated in the plot and the total resolution of the work of Art. In this vein, "The Ring" is an achievement of almost beyond human abilities, enormous proportions and multi-faceted perspective.
Does anyone has a challenger, as c hris johnson suggested?
Parla
Mon, Apr 23 2012, 7:50PM
#9
RE: Most Underrated, Forgotten, and Neglected Masterpieces
If Beecham could swap Bach for Massenet, surely, he should have been in a very humorous form. As he should have found himself in a similar situation, when he dared to say to a young female cellist of the orchestra, as she struggled in a pizzicato passage: "Madame, you have something between your legs, that can give enormous pleasure to all these people out there, and the only thing you have to do is to...scratch it"! (As I recalled it from a tribute to the great conductor, in an old BBCMM: "Beecham's quotes").
Parla
Mon, Apr 23 2012, 9:00PM
#10
RE: Forgotten, and Neglected Masterpieces
"The Total Work of Art" (Gesamtkunstwerk) was the concept of Wagner's transformation of Opera. So, it is a matter of any musician, fan, scholar, melomane etc. to perceive it or not. In Wagner's mind, the Work of (his) Art should (and could) attain the comprehensive use of all the musical, dramatic and poetic aspects along with the visual ones (staging, lighting, costumes, the venue, etc.).
I hate to say it but Wagner and I think alike in this regard, and I'd maintain that his views apply not only to his own works. They're surely applicable to most post-Wagnerian operas and more than a few before him - Mozart's for instance.
I find the Ring an astounding work in every respect, one that can survive any number of interpretations. What it's 'about' is a subject that will continue to be debated for ever. For me, enjoyment of Wagner starts with adjustment to his time scale. He pushes the envelope a bit in the Ring but just manages to keep hold of the drama. In Parsifal, Lohengrin and Tristan that grip slackens somewhat.
Troyen, my difficulty with Bruckner sounds a bit like yours with Wagner. The spirituality you find in Bruckner I can experience here and there (in the 9th especially) but too often for me he crosses the line into tedium. In a good production Wagner's longueurs are relieved by what's happening on stage. Bruckner's music has to stand on its own or at least inspire extra-musical sensations in the listener's mind but I find my mind drifting earthwards to such questions as whether my library books are due back. I keep trying him, keep waiting for the penny to drop.
Mon, Apr 23 2012, 11:53PM
#11
RE: Most Underrated, Forgotten, and Neglected Masterpieces
I can fully subscribe to your last post, Tagalie and I don't hate to say that. I feel the same thing with Bruckner's situation "crossing the line into tedium", the difficulty in finding a constant spirituality in his music and so on.
My only reservation lies on the fact that I cannot find that "in Parsifal, Lohengrin and Tristan the grip slackens somewhat". I found the resolution in all these "gesamtkunstwerke" growing and culminating into the full glory of Music and Art. The development, though, needs a lot of concentration and self-discipline of the listener (or the audience, in the theatre).
Parla
Tue, Apr 24 2012, 12:36AM
#12
RE: Most Underrated, Forgotten, and Neglected Masterpieces
Oh dear, I seem to have inadvertently prolonged a debate on Wagner.
No, Parla, what Beecham said was "...and all you can do is scratch it."
I'm listening to Bruckner, now, who I find as interesting as the "Beast," the (in)famous Celibidache 4th on EMI.
Now there is a recording worth putting out on SACD!
Perhaps some body should start a thread on "The Most Overrated, Unforgettable, Forever-in-your-face so-called masterpieces we could all do with a moratorium on."
First up I nominate....!
Tue, Apr 24 2012, 12:59AM
#13
RE: Most Underrated, Forgotten, and Neglected Masterpieces
Inadvertently or not, Troyen, the way you handle Wagner not only can "prolong" a debate but it even may lead to more slippery ground of never ending arguments.
Just bear in mind that Wagner is neither a "monster" nor a "beast" (whatever you wish to imply or mean with these "terms"). He is simply the great Wagner as is the great Beethoven and so on. His contribution, with his immense work, to the western music is enormous and his influence to the ensuing composers is most significant.
Parla
Tue, Apr 24 2012, 2:06AM
#14
RE: Most Underrated, Forgotten, and Neglected Masterpieces
You acknowledge of course, Parla, (pause to stop spluttering) that Wagner's view of opera and yours are poles apart?
Tue, Apr 24 2012, 7:56AM
#15
RE: Most Underrated, Forgotten, and Neglected Masterpieces
“The plastic energy of Wagner's fancy, his astonishing mastery over the technique of the orchestra, and numerous musical beauties reign in the Nibelungen with a magical power to which we willingly and thankfully yield ourselves captive. These single beauties that creep, as it were, behind the back of the system do not prevent this system, the tyranny of the word, of unmelodious dialogue, from planting in the whole the seeds of death.” - Eduard Hanslick
“…something of Milton's Fallen Spirit surrounds Wagner with a strange mixture of attraction and repulsion. Among the gods of his native heaven he might have been great, and in that which is now his own place he lifts himself in Titanic grandeur. But let us not forget he is powerful chiefly for evil.” – Joseph Bennett
Wagner is a mixed bag and it’s hard to remain neutral about his aesthetic. It is easy to see why opinion about him is so polarized. I agree with Bennett’s description of Wagner as being “a strange mixture of attraction and repulsion”. As I listen to Wagner’s music, I am awestruck the penetrating beauty, the overwhelmingly power and the titanic expression of genius that is Wagner, and yet, I can’t help but notice something inherently wrong lurking beneath the surface.
Troyen, I didn't dare to tell you before that when I came across the Donizetti on the ORF site, that I posted you about, I was actually looking for something quite different, Thielemann in the Wagner Ring from the Staatsoper, being broadcast this week and next. By the way, no dance in Wagner? Try Die Meistersinger Act III (Dance of the Apprentices).
There's the Venusberg Music, but he had to write that if he wanted his work performed at the Paris Opera.
The fact that it was placed straight after the overture has, usually, been the explanation as to why the opera failed in Paris as the Parisian yahoos came in late for the ballet and realised they had missed it and demonstrated accordingly.
Personally, I think the Parisian audience were annoyed that they didn't get the joke.