Most Underrated, Forgotten, and Neglected Masterpieces

Enjoy your concert Parla!

Sounds better than spaghetti and wine out in the back garden - which is me for tonight!

Not that I'm complaining!

Mark

There is absolutely nothing wrong with spaghetti and wine in the back garden - depending on the weather, absence of wasps, what's on the spaghetti, and what wine's in the bottle. Eating out on the deck last night, we were visited by a mother bear with two youngsters. Always a sign it's time to take the meal indoors.

Hi Tagalie!

What was on the spaghetti was 'tonno a la marco!' In other words, a 'knock-up' dating back to student days: olive oil, onion, carrot, tin toms, tin tuna or two - hint of chilli, ground black pepper.. It still tastes good after all these years - though you should also try a little olive oil, onion, red pepper, tuna and cream with black and pink peppercorns. That one is known as 'tonno al la crema'.

A good artisan spaghetti of course. It's not the wasps here it's the midges, and it's not 2 or 3 wolves but the bonehead up the road and his two fighting dogs out for a walk in the alley between our garden and the allotments! Thankfully our wall is HIGH!

What can I say about the wine I had tonight? You know when it gets desperate and there's only one left?: Take a Lindemans el plonko, leave it for 7 years...and it becomes not just fortified but PORTIFIED! Thank God it was a synthetic cork, or the stench of oak would have put even me off!

Mark

Oh, boy!. When I sleep here, you are so active over there. So, I guess I have to respond to each one of you separately. First in the line is Chris:

The accoustics of the "Egg" are variable. There are different Halls for different purposes: Symphony Hall, Chamber Music, Theatre, Opera. I haven't attended concerts in all of them, so my view is limited to the Concert Hall for Symphonic Music, which is impressive enough but it doesn't match the effect of the building itself. The Chamber Music is much more comfortable, effective in the sound accoustics and warm in the communication of artist(s) and audience. However, the whole "thing" is a huge marvel of construction, outside and inside. Whether you like it or not is your subjective prerogative, but the construction (architecture, engineering, etc.) as such is an objective "miracle" (ha-ha).

I always have access to internet, except when I'm travelling, where I have to concentrate on...relaxing, particularly when I have some endless hours in the air...

As for your Lieder thread, I feel so disappointed that it didn't produce the necessary "discourse". Anyway, I'll come back with some more comments. I wonder where JKH is. He would definitely have plenty to say. (He may be on vacation too).

Parla

Finally, you old chap Tagalie.

I don't confuse "skill with greatness". I never claimed that the great composers have skills only. Their greatness relies on their understanding and further development of the "conventions" of music, something that requires more than mere skills. It needs study, research, deep knowledge of the rules of music, of the musical instruments, etc.

The analogy with the TV sport pundits is rather "unfair". None of us write or perform as "analyst" anywhere. Actually, there are no "official pundits" anywhere in the Classical Music field, except, somehow, in the Schools of Music, Conservatories, etc. only for those who want to study, research, become professional musicians, etc.

I could agree fully with your statement that "greatness defy analysis" (that's why "evidence" of any kind of external to music "logic" is redundant). However, then, yhou bring to the subject the "external factors" to "define" greatness and you made me "lost" again.

You are "unfair" if you claim that, at least me, I never brought examples of the key components of why a piece of music is great (because of a, b and c reasons). I have stated, on various threads and occasions, that there are three key components (of a composition), defining the greatness of a work: a) the structure (how the work has been constructed, which form has been used, in which way, etc.), b) the orchestration (the variety of instruments, the way these instruments have been used, showing how the composer had good knowledge of the limitations and the advantages of each instrument, etc.) and c) the harmonic language (the tonalities and the modulations used, the counterpoint, harmony, chromaticism, use of mediants or submediants, etc.). To name only the a, b and c, as you suggested.

As for the examples, except for Chris' example of the "flattened chord" in Schubert, I have mentioned the example from Schubert's "Trout" Quintet, which, apparently, you didn't get it. Before I go back to the "Trout", please kindly note that the "flattened chord" is not a trick or secret of composers to succeed, but a tool that they have to find where and how to use it. Schubert was such a great composer to know how and when to use it within the context of his Lied. That's why it works. It doesn't mean any composer can used it anywhere, in any context, and be musically effective or great. The impact to the audience (if, of course, they notice it) is irrelevant to the musical value of the work.

Going back to the "Trout": The fourth movement is in D major. It's a variations movement on the well-known Lied of Schubert with the same title. In the first three variations, Schubert moves rather conservatively in terms of modulations or chromaticism. In the fourth variation, he moves to the bold minor mode (d minor) to give the dramatic effect to the movement. While till then, in the Classic tradition, he had to come back to the tonal (D major) and finish with the final variation, Schubert decides to take the risk to break with tradition (without rejecting it), by introducing a new (slow and almost poignant) variation in the unexpected and quite remote key of B flat! However, the amazing (musically speaking) thing is how he could go back to D major to close the movement. Then, the very young composer shows his inventivenss and creativity, by using a series of very subtle and smooth modulations that, within this penultimate variation, lead us back to the tonal and last variation. This is not a "trick" that can be repeated or learned or used. It works in this particular score, because of Schubert's scope and perspective of the whole work. If we notice it, we simply haved to identify and...admire it. Whether we like it or not is another story, irrelevant to the musical value of the "Trout" Quintet.

As for Beethoven's Ninth versus the First, I gave recently the example that, taking the First Movement of both Symphonies, one (who knows to read or to follow scores) can clearly notice that the Ninth's is a fully and most boldy and creatively developed Sonata Form, while the First's is a conventional (though excellent) use of the Sonata Form. If we take the orchestration, we may notice the same differences: conventional though excellent versus an inventive, almost audacious and very powerful one in the Ninth.

So, there is something to work on, Tagalie.

Parla

You have engaged in some interesting exchanges with Mark and Craig (and others) on subjective and objective aspects in the appreciation of music.

On the issue of greatness (in music) as an objective fact, you have completely failed to address or acknowledge their arguments.   

To claim common ground on both, when it only applies to one suggests either that you are unaware of the difference between them, or a willful refusal to engage.

I repeat: You have written nothing that indicates how objective greatness in music can be proven.  

As you have claimed to have done so, please indicate where.  

And, in passing, this is not about my, your or anyone's "satisfaction".  It is about taking responsibility for statements you have made, or give support for.

Vic.

Vic, you don't wast your time. Apparently, you have enough to spare.

So, you need evidence. Always evidence outside of what is music. The Music "logic" is the logic a composer has to follow to construct his work and a performer to identify what he/she has to perform. That's the key of any evidence you need.

In the same vein, you cannot comprehend how structure, orchestration and harmonic language can define the greatness of a work of music. It's obvious you don't know (to read or follow a score of) music. So, these words do not mean anything specific, tangible to you. I'm not surprised. It has been evident long time ago. I'm not sure if you can recognise the difference between the construction of a mansion or a cathedral compare to a hut or a chapel (structure). I cannot figure out if you can accept the difference in the quality of the material used (orchestration). I'm not sure if the refined details in the construction finishing, like angles, columns, porticos, etc. (harmonic language) can play any role in comprehending how components of any Art can define the greatness within it and of it.

The other day, a friend of mine and professional musician told me: "Almost everyday, we may identify new scores that remain untapped, never heard or performed". Slowly, gradually, some of us may present them in public, one day. Till then, these works are what? If they expect any audience to give them any "title" or "qualification", they have to wait for long or forever. So, do they exist? If yes, what is their musical position/value? We listen, perform and record only a handful of the existing and the untapped repertory. However, when we (the musicians) see the score, we know what is great and what is less than that or indifferent, etc. For us, there is only the score and us, as performers. For all the others (audience, listeners, radio or tv programmes, magazines, etc.) music can be anything they wish to perceive, even if they can read or follow a score, as long as they will never go too far to find out what is to perform professionally a work of music.

So, maybe, Vic, we may accept that, as listeners, we are allowed to perceive whatever is convenient to us. And if you wish to think that you (or any you) give any qualification to the value of the work, in your mind, this can always be true. Things may change, if you ever decide to get into the music-making process, when you come face to face with the score and, much worse, you have to...perform it. Fortunately, for you, this day will never come.

Parla