Most Underrated, Forgotten, and Neglected Masterpieces
Wed, May 23 2012, 9:20AM
#2
RE: Most Underrated, Forgotten, and Neglected Masterpieces
BAYERN v. CHELSEA
Parla wrote: “Can you tell us, Vic, which is your value judgement about the musical (not the overall, or emotional, or anything else you may invent) value of the "Emperor" Piano Concerto by Beethoven? (Please kindly in your answer refer to all the musical grounds of your judgement).
“As for "the definition of greatness cannot be proved by the quality of its elements", we have to clarify that we always talk about the greatness of Music. So, as long as we have a common understanding of a mutually accepted definition of Music (as an Art), then, we'll see whether "its elements" are enough to prove its greatness or not.
“So, what is Music, Vic? Give us a definition (or your definition).”
That‘s the problem Parla. Vic is Bayern. He only does attack, he doesn’t do defence. We are Chelsea, we have had to defend. But remember who won!
But Parla, I think it is clear we are not going to convince Vic, and as long as he is allowed to attack and we just to defend, we will inevitably make inconsistencies, allowing him to score a goal. We each have our strongly held beliefs but we have done our best to explain ours. So let us for now concede that we are not going to convince the subjectivics of the validity of our arguments. Enough.
Now it’s time for them to defend their positions.
Vic: What is music for you? How do you decide that a piece of music is great? You consider the Late String Quartets by Beethoven as the pinnacle of all Art known to you. Please elaborate.
And then this:
Parla wrote: “First, we (at least the ones who can read the score) acknowledge what
we identify, find out, discover in the score.”
vic wrote; “‘We’. The special ones. The initiated. The Guardians whose knowledge and wisdom enhances power and influence - and excludes the ignorant and the unworthy. It sees itself as a priesthood and like all such, is founded on illusion and the denial of common sense.”
Please explain why you feel that we should treat the well-informed and the ignorant as equals in knowledge. Do you apply this principle to other fields of endeavour?
We are in your half now Vic, please defend!
Chris
Wed, May 23 2012, 9:41AM
#3
RE: That's how to head the ball.
BAYERN v. CHELSEA
That‘s the problem Parla. Vic is Bayern. He only does attack, he doesn’t do defence. We are Chelsea, we have had to defend. But remember who won!
We are in your half now Vic, please defend!
Chris
The problem with Vic is that he is a Bayern defender, so he will roll on the floor for five minutes pretending to be injured and claim to be the victim, instead of playing the game in a fair and proper manner, like Chelsea (world champions and masters of the universe). Then he gets straight back up and on the attack when he has been given 'his' ball back. Like Bayern he thinks he has already won before he plays the game and wants the means to fit the end....... But this is not to be .......as the ball swings in from the corner with less than two minutes to play up rises the majestic Drogba .... Goooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaalllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll.
Wed, May 23 2012, 10:56AM
#4
RE: Most Underrated, Forgotten, and Neglected Masterpieces
This is the kind of puerile nonsense you descend to when you are committed to defend the indefensible.
It doesn't matter what my, or anyone's definition of music is if the issue is whether the greatness of it is an opinion or a fact.
Nothing can be defined as great in the absence of judgment or opinion.
All the waffle and sophistry in the world cannot alter that fact.
Vic.
Wed, May 23 2012, 11:30AM
#5
RE: Most Underrated, Forgotten, and Neglected Masterpieces
This is the kind of puerile nonsense you descend to when you are committed to defend the indefensible.
It doesn't matter what my, or anyone's definition of music is if the issue is whether the greatness of it is an opinion or a fact.
Nothing can be defined as great in the absence of judgment or opinion.
All the waffle and sophistry in the world cannot alter that fact.
Vic.
The Fact that Beethoven is great is knowledge based on opinion based on knowledge. Like the theory of relativity. You are on the floor again victor, rolling around claiming a foul. 'Der naughty chelsea fussballer herr did kickun me'. Get up victor, you never see Drogba cheating.
Wed, May 23 2012, 11:30AM
#6
RE: Most Underrated, Forgotten, and Neglected Masterpieces
I wasn't holding my breath. I didn't expect any answer.
But it's not such fun shooting at an open goal!
Wed, May 23 2012, 11:46AM
#7
RE: Most Underrated, Forgotten, and Neglected Masterpieces
But Parla, I think it is clear we are not going to convince Vic, and as long as he is allowed to attack and we just to defend, we will inevitably make inconsistencies, allowing him to score a goal. We each have our strongly held beliefs but we have done our best to explain ours. So let us for now concede that we are not going to convince the subjectivics of the validity of our arguments. Enough.
Chris,
On 21st. May in this thread you wrote:
"I have written repeatedly that objective greatness in music cannot be proven."
As this is my position, on what grounds do you attack me and defend Parla, when his is the opposite of this?
(Brodsky's attacks I can understand. Somehow it's my fault he has to pay his BBC licence fee.)
Vic.
Wed, May 23 2012, 11:58AM
#8
RE: Most Underrated, Forgotten, and Neglected Masterpieces
I'm sure with your excellent Linn LP12, you never have the problem of a repeating groove.
Now please do me the courtesy of considering the questions I asked you:
What is music for you? How do you decide that a piece of music is great? You consider the Late String Quartets by Beethoven as the pinnacle of all Art known to you. Please elaborate.
Please explain why you feel that we should treat the well-informed and the ignorant as equals in knowledge. Do you apply this principle to other fields of endeavour?
Wed, May 23 2012, 11:54AM
#9
RE: Most Underrated, Forgotten, and Neglected Masterpieces
The Fact that Beethoven is great is knowledge based on opinion based on knowledge. Like the theory of relativity. You are on the floor again victor, rolling around claiming a foul. 'Der naughty chelsea fussballer herr did kickun me'. Get up victor, you never see Drogba cheating.[/quote]
You debase the debate, Gramophone Forum, and yourself with this kind of commentary.
Vic.
Wed, May 23 2012, 12:00PM
#10
RE: Most Underrated, Forgotten, and Neglected Masterpieces
I'm sure with your excellent Linn LP12, you never have the problem of a repeating groove.
Nevertheless, I think you owe this forum an explanation. On what grounds do you attack a proponent of a proposition that you claim as your own?
Vic.
Wed, May 23 2012, 12:08PM
#11
RE: Most Underrated, Forgotten, and Neglected Masterpieces
I'm sure with your excellent Linn LP12, you never have the problem of a repeating groove.
Now please do me the courtesy of considering the questions I asked you:
What is music for you? How do you decide that a piece of music is great? You consider the Late String Quartets by Beethoven as the pinnacle of all Art known to you. Please elaborate.
Please explain why you feel that we should treat the well-informed and the ignorant as equals in knowledge. Do you apply this principle to other fields of endeavour?
I am making no claims. I am questioning the claim that greatness is based on facts not opinions. A claim that you, yourself, latterly deny.
Your questions to me, though not lacking some interest in another context, have no bearing on the claim that greatness in music is not a matter of judgment or opinion.
Please explain to this forum on what grounds you attack me for defending a statement that you support.
Vic.
Wed, May 23 2012, 12:27PM
#12
RE: Most Underrated, Forgotten, and Neglected Masterpieces
Vic wrote:greatness in music is not a matter of judgment or opinion.
So what is it? That's what I was asking, and I chose as an example music you had singled out. So, it's your turn now.
Your question has been asked at least twice before by you and on both occasions I responded. I'll look up the references to my previous answers in a little while, unless you find them in the meantime.
Wed, May 23 2012, 1:11PM
#13
RE: Most Underrated, Forgotten, and Neglected Masterpieces
Vic, Chris, by saying that "objective greatness in music cannot be proven", he doesn't mean he claims that this "objective greatness" does not exist.
So, his questions are quite pertinent to the context and the development of this debate.
What is Music for you? If you dont give a definition, in essence you can apply anything to whatever you may imagine as Music.
How do you decide that a piece of music is great? This is a quite fundamental question for someone who claims that greatness in music is based only on opinions. So, taking a work that you have admitted you consider as the pinnacle of all Art, please kindly elaborate, in musical terms, why this work is great. Elaborate your opinion, but, please about the music itself. Because, if you come by admitting that you cannot develop any particular view on the greatness of this music, you simply have no opinion at all. You simply state something without any grounds at all. So, your contribution to the "overwhelming consensus" is useless, because either you repeat an already made statement or you (still) confuse the emotional value the work can give you, which, however, has nothing to do with the Artistic (musical) value of it. So, what's your judgement on the musical value of Beethoven's Late String Quartets?
The next question of Chris about the "well-informed and the ignorant" is also linked to the above. I have asked the same question, in another way. Who, eventually is going to deliver an opinion, valid enough on the musical value, unless he/she is well-informed (knows what is music, the rules of music, etc)? Who in this forum can contribute to the musical value (or not), with an elaborated opinion/judgement, of Mozart's Violin Sonata in e-minor, K. 304? Is anybody aware of the work? If, as I presume, very few really know the work that well, is this Sonata still "great" for this forum?
So, we are still in the game, Vic. And what is "sad" or "pathetic", leave it at the end of the (not so) beautiful game of this thread. I know you love value judgements, but don't be in such a hurry. We have extra-time, the penalties...Who knows (Herr Hugh ist geduldig)?
Parla
Wed, May 23 2012, 1:19PM
#14
RE: Most Underrated, Forgotten, and Neglected Masterpieces
We have extra-time, the penalties...Who knows (Herr Hugh ist geduldig)?
Parla
Papier ist geduldig, und Hugh ist geduldig.
Wed, May 23 2012, 1:48PM
#15
RE: Most Underrated, Forgotten, and Neglected Masterpieces
Vic wrote:greatness in music is not a matter of judgment or opinion.
No, Chris, my position is that greatness in music IS a matter of judgment or opinion. I am arguing against Parla's position that greatness is a FACT and not an opinion! For goodness sake! If you can't even get the terms of the dabate right, how can it be debated at all?
Your
question has been asked at least twice before by you and on both
occasions I responded. I'll look up the references to my previous
answers in a little while, unless you find them in the meantime.
No you didn't - as you will find.
But the question you need to address now, the question that puts your very credibility at stake here now is the one I ask above. Why are you attacking me for defending a statement that you yourself say you supported all along?
On 21 May you wrote:
"I have written repeatedly that objective greatness in music cannot be proven." Why are you attacking me for saying the same thing?
Vic.
Caballe, you are full of surprises. Sometime ago, you came to my support. Then, you change your tune twice, creating a reaction even from Mr. Hugh. I overcome the unusually "unfair" language and kind of fun you may suggest (and leave you with Hugh's bitter remarks) and I will come back to a sort of further explanation for the apparently controversial verbs of "attain" and "deserve".
First of all, you know very well English is neitheer my native or First language. So, my apologies for any confusion the direct (if I can put it that way) meaning of the words may create to your immediate perception.
These verbs are used, in one or the other way, among musicians, professors and students of music and performers. When you embark on listening let's say Schubert's Piano Sonata in A major, D. 959, initially you may listen just a work for Piano. You might like it or not, but, in its complexity, most probably you cannot get all its aspects, particularly the musical ones. In studying the score, researching the appropriate literature on this work, listening to various performances and repeatedly, you may start discovering the actual virtues of it. If you are a soloist too, then, you may be able to start performing it. This process to come to an end of a progression of comprehension of the work is what I call to attain the work of music: the quest of the enlightment of the work and the composer. Of course, if you manage to feel you have really achieved the final stage of your quest (for dedicated musicians this is quite possible), then, of course, this is an accomplishment. However, for listeners, this process, I'm afraid, is a bit of a perpetual one.
Accomplished musicians, soloists, conductors (Karajan used to say that after hundreds of times of performances of Beethoven's Symphonies, he might have started comprehending them) might feel, at a certain level of their maturity, that they "deserve" to perform the particular work of this or that composer (don't forget how reluctant Rostropovich was to record Bach's Suites for Cello. He did it at a later stage in his brilliant career, with limited impact and less satisfaction for himself). Accordingly, dedicated and seasoned listeners might feel they have reached a level of understanding of certain works that in a way they know them as thoroughly as possible.
If the verbs "attain" and "deserve" still are controversial to you, feel free to use the more appropriate, as a native speaker. The point is if you understand my aforesaid points.
Parla