Most Underrated, Forgotten, and Neglected Masterpieces

I tell you I have seen a performance of the play and you tell me it's a novel, as if I am, like your hero, Parla,  making it all up or are you, again, at fault in not fully reading, let alone understanding peoples posts?

I've read the Nibelungenlied as well, still have the Penguin edition, and I can reliably inform you that it has nothing to do with Die Ring. Wagner, simply, borrowed the names.

If you don't believe me just go away, for as long as it takes, and read it for yourself.

However, since I know that you will not here's a spoiler: Siegfried dies early on and Hagen is the real hero!

Troyen.  Bravo you are the master of invective.

I have the Penguin edition of the Nibelungenlied too.  Mostly you are right, though there are little sections here and there that Wagner rearranged to suit his text.  But much more by far of his libretto is drawn from the Edda Sagas, especially the 'Poetic' Edda, which I have and have read. But my point was that Wagner has transformed intractable material into amasterly libretto.  Do you disagree?

As I said I have read Dumas' novel (or much of it).  That he adapted it as a play, I had not seen, and many plays I have seen in the theatre have been adaptations of novels, not necessarily by the original author.  I really think you like picking a fight.  The main aim of my post was to agree with you for goodness sake.

Once again I ask: please the post, not the poster!!

The part where it predicts that time is not absolute is proven by the successful operation of GPS satellites etc. but the jury is still out on neutrinos travelling faster than the speed of light as described by Marcus Du Sautoy on BBC tv earlier this year.

About the music - my gut feeling is that a philosopher could argue - not prove -  that greatness could exist regardless of who is perceiving it, but I look forward to developments here.

The thought that occurred to me as I paused was that the creationists I debate with occasionally also claim to have lots of intelligent people on their side.  Do you think issues can be decided by a head-count of how many intelligent supporters we can muster?

You and your new friend "Hugh" - originally known as "Dr Brodsky" and traceable through eight or nine name changes necessitated by offensive or embarrassing outbursts - are correct to introduce the ideas of Karl Popper.    His concept of "falsifiability" as a necessary condition for theories in pursuit of knowledge and truth can help us here. 

Let's apply it the three scenarios:

One: E = mc2 enabled us in 1977 to send Voyager 1 four billion miles into space and send back an image of the earth from the edge of the known universe.  The theory is falsifiable and may indeed be modified in the future, as friend Brodsky states.  Right now though it's proving pretty reliable.

Two: The theory of "faith" supported as you say by the existence of "complexity and beauty" is not falsifiable in Popper's terms and probably because of this has led millions to distrust/fear/hate/kill their fellow men and women over a claim to have the best imaginary friend.  Nevertheless it is a field of human experience but "beyond" the search for proof of objective reality.  It is wholly in the subjective realm (and I am not claiming that because of that it has no value, just that its claims are limited to that realm of experience.  It is faith not knowledge as science would define it.)

So, Three:  Discuss, using whichever of the above criteria best suits the argument, the claim that Beethoven's Missa Solemnis is a lesser (or greater if you please) work of art than Bach's B minor Mass. I assume that greatness admits of degrees.

I suggest most would believe it a matter of opinion and that that is enough for them, probably because they regard the opinions of their fellow men and women as due the respect they would want for their own.

But then there are the objectivists who claim knowledge to be able to pronounce on such matters.  The trouble with that is that objective reality is measurable, quantifiable.  So let them show the falsifiable, verifiable, Popper-approved enquiry which supports it. 

I suggest that claims to objective greatness in art are impossible to verify - and are thus worthless.

Vic.

I am lead to believe that a fictional character called Dr Brodsky used to troll this site, it quite unerves Vic who thinks he keeps reappearing in various different guises. He doesn't like his world not to be made up of varifiable scientific facts. Liberal equals BBC square. Are you Dr Brodsky or have you every been a follower of Dr Brodsky?

As I recall it, Dr B had similar struggles with spelling, grammar and punctuation. Perhaps it was a result of a trendy liberal state education?

Yes, someone told me that they thought Dr B was a bit of a cult, but I may have slightly misheard.