Musical moments proclaiming profound religious beliefs.

Please gentlemen, take note of what Mr Cullingford said. If you don't want to discuss the topic there is no need to. You don't have to destroy it for anyone else. Just think of something else to discuss and start another thread or contribute to any of the existing threads. There are around 500 to choose from in the General Discussion alone  It's that simple.

How odd that it is always 'someone else' to blame for what is wrong.  Vic, sorry to say so but your 'persistence' is part of the problem. Parla, please stop ribbing Vic if you don't want more of the same. End of lecture.

If you read my first post again, Vic, you may see that it differs from what had been discussed before. Perhaps you can find something 'on topic' to say. Parla has already noticed this, thank you Parla. 

If you two want to keep squabbling may I humbly suggest pistols at dawn.

Parla, if I don't hear any gunshots in the meantime I will reply to your 'on-topic' comments in the morning.

Good night gentlemen.

Chris

Vic,

You wrote "I thank you for your information regarding the music of the mass of my childhood but although I have a lot of Gregorian Chant, none uses the music we (presumably?) were familiar with."

I assume you are speaking of plainchant.  The most frequently sung chants for the common of the mass (Kyrie, Gloria, etc.) are the Missa No. VIII ( (Missa de Angelis) and No. IX (Missa Cum Jubilo). These were the ones I heard most sundays (and sang too).  They have certainly been recorded by the Solesmes monks and probably by many others too. Excerpts are to be found on YouTube too. There were also chants for parts of the proper of the masses on feast days but I never got to sing those.

Hope this is what you meant??

Chris

As promised, some comments on your Bruckner and Faure post, Parla

You wrote: “On one hand, we have a composer like Bruckner, who claimed that he was chosen by God to compose his works (among his sayings: "They want me to write differently. Certainly, I could but I must not. God has chosen me from thousands and given me, of all people, this talent. It's Him that I must give account"). His monumental 9th, was dedicated "to our Beloved God". It is said that he added afterwards: "if he wants to accept it"! Despite the numerous signs of the reference to the Divinity, the work, particularly in the second movement, sounds quite down to earth, at least to me. Some wise old people, when they listen -for the first time- to only the first movement, they claimed that they felt more the smell of Death than the spirit of something divine.” 

Yes, Bruckner is a good example of a composer whose faith is truly beyond question (surely no one would argue with that), but whose symphonies at least feel rather secular.  The reason they are quite often performed in churches probably has more to do with the adsvantage of a warm acoustic with a reasonably long reverberation period than any religious connotation (or so it seems to me).  Perhaps there is something generic in the German late romantic style that does not feel religious.  The increasing chromaticism?    And yes, the 9th is the darkest and gloomiest of his symphonies (arguably also the most chromatic?), even with the (controversial) finale.  Incidentally, even Bruckner’s Motets are rarely to be heard in church.

I remember though an interesting comment on Bruckner’s symphonies from Robert Simpson.  Describing a number of romantic symphonies in terms of “battles fought and ultimately won (or not)” he comments sagely that in Bruckners symphonies, although there are the greatest of battles, the outcome is never in doubt from the the first note.  He says something like “it’s as though the battle has been viewed from the security of heaven above”. [I’ve tried unsuccessfully to find the text; I must have it somewhere - his actual words are so much better than mine.  Perhaps someone else remembers seeing it?]

“On the other hand, we have a work like Faure's Requiem. To me, it sounds always like a profound religious work, a testimony of the composer's attachment to God. I was utterly surprised, when I read that he confessed that he composed his Requiem almost for "entertainment" reasons. The opening three movements do not show that, almost at all, but, maybe the rest of the work...betrays something less divine.”

Hmm. More difficult.  I quite recently by chance came upon a performance in Winchester Cathedral (Bournemouth SO)- the first time I’d heard it in church, and remember thinking at the time that it didn’t sound quite right in church. It sounds more religious than Bruckner though (to these ears anyway).It does have a religious feel to me, even though it comes off better in the concert hall. 

Overall I suppose the moral for composers is “Listen to my music, not what I say!”

Finally, back to Credo. As a final, only partly relevant, shot: something I was reading in the superb new Faber Pocket Guide to Bach (Nicholas Kenyon) attracted my attention for this thread.

As is well known, Bach was fascinated by number symbolism (often making use of 14 for Bach, 41 for JSBach, etc.  Bach used this number symbolism to underline in a peculiarly Bachian way the importance of the word Credo in the opening movement of that section of the Mass in B minor. CREDO=43  (C=3,R=17,E=5,D=4, O=14), and in this movement the word Credo is repeated 43 times!  Now there’s a different way of showing one’s belief!

Best wishes 

Chris

Now Bach and his working methods; there's an idea. Perhaps after the summer has gone.