Musical moments proclaiming profound religious beliefs.
Sun, Aug 26 2012, 10:19AM
Musical moments proclaiming profound religious beliefs.
In another thread, Vic wrote: “I'm sure what we can agree on is the unique contribution faith has made to the creation of wonderful music down the ages.”
Perhaps this is a possible subject for a new thread: not just a list of works to which faith has contributed, but rather key moments which powerfully proclaim the faith of their composers, or even problems with their faith.
Here are three suggestions:
The opening of the Credo of Beethoven’s Missa Solemnis. Credo, credo (fah, ray, soh, doh): - an open and shut case in four notes - I believe. Is there any more decisive statement of faith in the whole of music? Surely there could not be a terser one.
Byrd Mass for 4 Voices, Dona nobis pacem. The whole mass setting is unusually intense for Byrd. But in the Agnus Dei, after the third entry nothing that has gone before ‘prepares the listener or communicant for the dona nobis pacem’, creating ‘one of Byrd’s darkest and most unforgettable pages’ (Joseph Kerman). The intensity and despairing nature of the request for peace - peace between two branches of the same religion - during the time of persecution of Catholics in Anglican England, is almost unbearable.
Bach St. John and St, Matthew Passions. So much of Bach’s music could easily be chosen, but for one crucial moment, used twice, I have to pick the passage from St. Matthew where Peter weeps after he betrays Jesus three times. This passage must have been extraordinarily significant for Bach, because, uniquely in all the recitative of the evangelist, he set it with extended melismatic lines. Even more, he felt compelled to introduce Matthew’s text into his St. John Passion too. If the melisma is even more elaborate (and more intense) in St. John, in St. Matthew the point is reinforced even more powerfully by the aria that follows immediately (Erbarme dich mein Gott), one of Bach’s most sublime creations.
Vic, you wrote “Whatever is it with me (a confirmed rationalist) and religious music? The superstitious would say Someone is trying to tell me something.” Superstitious or not, even unbelievers must surely suspend their disbelief at least for the duration of the music. Interestingly, over the centuries the attitude of the church (or churches) to music as part of the religious rite has blown hot and cold, alternatively beguiled and frightened by the power of music. At its most extreme the Roman Catholic Church limited the music permitted to plainsong (Gregorian chant). Some of these chants (which can be deeply moving as part of the mass, or vespers, or whatever, were more than a millenium old by the time they were summarily abandoned by the Church in the 1960s.
And so, Vic, to your comment “I put it [your relationship with religious music] down to the nostalgia of those sung Latin high masses of my childhood whose music still haunts. I have never been able to find a recording of them though. Any help with that one out there?” Well, a rich treasury of Gregorian chant is to be found in the recordings of the Benedictine monks of Solesmes. Made for French Decca mostly during the 1950s and ‘60s whilst the chants were still in active daily use, they cover most of the liturgy. These recordings have been reissued on the French Accord label (available from Amazon, especially French Amazon). I have a few of these. Especially fine are the recordings (made in stereo) for the (now completely abandoned) Holy week tenebrae liturgy . There is a Solemnes website too, which lists them all and also shows some much more recent recordings, which I didn’t know of at all until I looked these up in response to your request:
http://www.solesmes.eu/GB/editions/disques.php?Y209
Hope this helps, and may lead to some responses.
Chris
Sun, Aug 26 2012, 5:31PM
#2
RE: Musical moments proclaiming profound religious beliefs.
Oh, Chris! You bring back a "hot" issue. About a year ago, there was a thread titled "Can God be found in Classical Music?". If you haven't read it, it might be of some use for you to visit it (I hope you can trace it). In that thread, Vic and I, along with quite a few other members, had some "memorable" exchanges on the issue of Classical Music and Divinity. No actual resolution had been achieved, obviously...
Being in full agreement with your examples, I wish to add my perception of the Divine Entity in Classical Music works of no obvious religious character.
One of the most paramount examples is the slow movement of Beethoven's String Quartet in a minor, op.132, titled Heilige Dankgesang eines Genessen an die Gottheit (A Convalescent's Holy Song of Thanksgiving to the Divinity). It's amazing how often Beethoven suggests, in this short phrase, the Divine: Holy Song, Thanksgiving, Divinity. While the music is of absolute abstract nature, one cannot fail to recognise all these three Holy elements: the Holy Song, the Thanksgiving and the address to the Divine One, in a most sublime music ever composed.
In a less apparent way, Beethoven, in the Finale of his Sixth Symphony, made a less obvious reference in the movement's sub-title: Hintengesang. Frohe und dankbare Gefuhle nach dem Sturm (Shepherds' song; cheerful and thankful feelings after the storm). The reference of the "Sepherds" and the "thankful feelings" is a concealed reference to...God, in a quite profound way. This movement, as it unfolds, reaches the culmination point of a true believer addressing the Divine. It's a monumental uplifting music of human's faith, hope and love. One of the best and most substantive movements the great Master ever wrote.
As I have mentioned, on various occasions, I found Bach at his most profound in some of his most monumental Preludes and Fugues rather than his obvious religious works or in some more intimate Chamber works, but, that is what I see, anyway.
I could continue with more examples, but let's see how the thread will be developed.
Parla
Sun, Aug 26 2012, 6:06PM
#3
RE: Musical moments proclaiming profound religious beliefs.
Thanks Mark and Parla for your kind greetings!
Parla, I looked at the previous thread you mentioned, but just to clarify - and for Mark too - the idea I had for this thread is slightly different. I'm not concerned with the question of whether God can be found in music, nor even music which seems to the listener particularly 'spiritual', but rather I am looking for key moments, movements or treatments of a subject which powerfully proclaim the faith of their composers, or even problems with their faith (Britten's War Requiem might contain such examples). So I think it is a different subject. Both the Beethoven examples you gave Parla perfectly fit this idea, the Quartet obviously so, the second, perhaps more controversially. Whether these examples should ignite similar faith in the listener, believer or not, is something else altogether.
Of course there is always a danger a subject like this can go 'off the rails' but, well, let's see.
Chris
Mon, Aug 27 2012, 3:13AM
#4
RE: Musical moments proclaiming profound religious beliefs.
You are right, Chris. I can see the difference in your topic vis a vis to the other one. However, based on the vehement reaction of the "atheist"'s (or non-believers) side, I thought initially you opened another Pandora's box. So far, however, it's unusually quite...
So, going back to the new subject. On one hand, we have a composer like Bruckner, who claimed that he was chosen by God to compose his works (among his sayings: "They want me to write differently. Certainly, I could but I must not. God has chosen me from thousands and given me, of all people, this talent. It's Him that I must give account"). His monumental 9th, was dedicated "to our Beloved God". It is said that he added afterwards: "if he wants to accept it"! Despite the numerous signs of the reference to the Divinity, the work, particularly in the second movement, sounds quite down to earth, at least to me. Some wise old people, when they listen -for the first time- to only the first movement, they claimed that they felt more the smell of Death than the spirit of something divine.
On the other hand, we have a work like Faure's Requiem. To me, it sounds always like a profound religious work, a testimony of the composer's attachment to God. I was utterly surprised, when I read that he confessed that he composed his Requiem almost for "entertainment" reasons. The opening three movements do not show that, almost at all, but, maybe the rest of the work...betrays something less divine.
So, it's difficult to claim the actual reference of the composer to God. One thing is for sure: almost all of them, in one or the other way, were a sort of believers, from the outright case of Bruckner to the more ambivalent, like Wagner.
Parla
Mon, Aug 27 2012, 4:51PM
#5
RE: Musical moments proclaiming profound religious beliefs.
Oh dear! How believers like to rub our faces in their illusions. I guess it aids their persecution narrative if they can provoke criticism of their belief without evidence.
In reality, but for a few accidents of history, the motivation of the composers of beautiful music could have been completely different. For instance, if the adherents of the gnostic gospels had got the upper hand and persecuted their opponents out of existence rather then the other way round; or if the emperor Constantine had not decided that a Christian symbol on their shields would bring his troops better luck (and so instituted forced conversions throughout the empire) music would have been composed for different motives - but for us the result would be the same.
I thought we had agreed that it is the sincerity of the motivation, coupled with the talent of the composer that results in the greatness of the music, not the truth of that motivation?
Trying to revive this issue is yet another sneaky way of claiming validity for a delusion on the coat-tails of beautiful music. That's my opinion anyway. And I believe I have a right to it.
Vic.
Mon, Aug 27 2012, 5:32PM
#6
RE: Musical moments proclaiming profound religious beliefs.
And I thought this thread was very "quiet". So, here we are again, Vic.
I believe we had agreed that there is no delusion, when Faith is involved. So, if we accept that the "sincerity of the motivation" exists for the composer, then, there is no question about the "truth of the motivation". At least for him. If we cannot contest the sincerity of the faith of the composer, the question of the truth of the object of his faith is irrelevant (to the process of the music-making and the final outcome).
Thus, I trust the initiator of this thread didn't try to "claim any validity for any delusion" (he may not be a believer). However, you, Vic, can always claim it. "You have the right to it". It's your opinion and opinions belong only to their...masters.
Parla
P.S.: History is not written with "ifs", but with facts. So, we try to identify the facts, not to speculate. The fact is that most of the great composers (as well as the performers) were believers. So, the question is to what extent they proclaim their "profound beliefs" in some moments or movements or even works of their opus.
Mon, Aug 27 2012, 6:13PM
#7
RE: Musical moments proclaiming profound religious beliefs.
Vic,
What on earth is the reason for that outburst!
As a non-believer myself I weighed my words carefully in posting this thread.
I beg you, try reading it again. Its starting point was a quotation from you, with which I think we all agree. The examples I gave were carefully chosen for quite different reasons than you suggest in your post and the proposed theme quite clearly given.
I also responded sympathetically to other comments you had made - so I am forever at a loss to understand your (feigned or real) outrage.
For the record, as you could have guessed from my pseudonym I am no more a believer than you, though I did share your childhood experience of latin masses, as well as a roman catholic 'education'.
Please make an effort to read my original post again before replying. Please!
Chris
Mon, Aug 27 2012, 6:49PM
#8
RE: Musical moments proclaiming profound religious beliefs.
Vic,
What on earth is the reason for that outburst!
Chris,
Methinks you do protest too much.
Vic.
Mon, Aug 27 2012, 6:54PM
#9
RE: Musical moments proclaiming profound religious beliefs.
Please do me the favour of reading my post again before you reply. I went to some trouble to address questions you yourself raised. I asked you politely and do so once again.
Chris
Tue, Aug 28 2012, 6:25AM
#10
RE: Musical moments proclaiming profound religious beliefs.
I believe we had agreed that there is no delusion, when Faith is involved.
We certainly had not agreed that!
Vic.
Tue, Aug 28 2012, 6:52AM
#11
RE: Musical moments proclaiming profound religious beliefs.
Please do me the favour of reading my post again before you reply. I went to some trouble to address questions you yourself raised. I asked you politely and do so once again.
Chris
My dear Chris, a couple of points for clarification:
It is more than a little disingenuous, not to say egotistical, to claim that a reading of your writing is inaccurate if it isn't interpreted in the way you want. This is not the first time you have taken this view.
Secondly, I believe you achieved the result you wanted when you posted a theme that you knew had previously provoked heated contention. You have form on this issue and you know how Parla is bound to react (as indeed he did). Your subsequent "honest-broker" line is unconvincing.
On a more positive note, I thank you for your information regarding the music of the mass of my childhood but although I have a lot of Gregorian Chant, none uses the music we (presumably?) were familiar with.
Vic.
Tue, Aug 28 2012, 7:35AM
#12
RE: Musical moments proclaiming profound religious beliefs.
To Andrew Everard:
Sadly, this thread has turned sour very quickly. Apologies, but perhaps the best thing would be if the thread could be removed.
Sorry!
Chris
Tue, Aug 28 2012, 12:03PM
#13
RE: Musical moments proclaiming profound religious beliefs.
Vic, check again the posts #6-7, page 4, in the thread "composers and their working methods". I thought at least you accept that "delusion is not an option when Faith is involved". You call it the "definition of it". Anyhow, the thread turned to go astray again.
Chris, you don't have to ask for removing this thread. The actual problem is the lack of participation from other members...and not only in this thread. The forum looks...somehow "empty". Extended vacation period or what?
Parla
Tue, Aug 28 2012, 1:09PM
#14
RE: Musical moments proclaiming profound religious beliefs.
Vic, check again the posts #6-7, page 4, in the thread "composers and their working methods". I thought at least you accept that "delusion is not an option when Faith is involved". You call it the "definition of it".
Parla,
Yes, the statement itself is a definition of delusion. I believe infallibility to be delusional. How could you possibly take it to mean the opposite?! I would have thought you knew me better than that by now!
Anyhow, the thread turned to go astray
again.
Your first reaction to Chris' post was: "Oh Chris! You bring back a hot issue." Whatever did he expect?
Chris, you don't have to ask for removing this thread. The
actual problem is the lack of participation from other members...and not
only in this thread. The forum looks...somehow "empty".
I don't think the reason for that is too hard to find.
Anyway, time to move on...
Vic.
Tue, Aug 28 2012, 1:24PM
#15
RE: Musical moments proclaiming profound religious beliefs.
A gentle interjection to point out that threads like this can be very interesting when those posting remain focussed on the topic - but when the focus of a post feels more about another poster's views/posts it becomes in danger of wandering off-topic, to the detriment of encouraging others to join in. I know we all want to make this Forum as active and busy as we can, and my comments are made purely in this spirit. Martin
Hi Chris! Welcome back.
Just off the top - key moments for me - well, of real beauty, the alleluias in the Symphony of Psalms, and I love Esurientes from Bach's Magnificat (and the opening Magnificat movement) - such a joyful work!
More profound or mournful - Lacrimosa with its doleful melody from the Verdi Requiem. John Tavener's Funeral Ikos - mournful and beautiful both at once!
(As an aside, I also feel profoundly moved by some melodies which seem to touch more deeply than others - that lovely tune from the Borodin Polotsvian Dance for starters! The Waltz like section in the 1st movement of Sibelius 5. Not sacred music these but I just give a couple of egs of where the effect on you can be as deep as if it is a setting of a religious text!)