Norrington?
Sat, May 5 2012, 11:46PM
#2
RE: Norrington?
The whole topic of repeats is an interesting one, should have its own thread. As I've said elsewhere, in Mahler 6 the exposition repeat stikes me as being essential to the structure. In Schubert 9 it makes an already too-long work even longer. The Brahms symphonies fall somewhere in between.
In general, if we accept the view that composers used them to acquaint audiences with the main themes, for recorded music at least it would seem they're redundant. If they're there to balance the structure that's a whole different matter.
Getting away from the two idiots above you, have you heard any of Manze's recent Brahms orchestral cycle on CPO?
He includes the first movement repeat in the 1st symphony which comes as a complete surprise!
I thought composers put in repeats so that the audience could better familiarise themselves with the music. Some composers actually stated that repeats were optional but I agree with you about unbalancing the structure which the omission of the exposition repeat in Mahler's 6th does and the repeat in the first movement of Symphonie Fantastique.
Sat, May 5 2012, 11:54PM
#3
RE: Norrington?
Norrington's EMI recording of the Schubert 9th with the London Classical Players takes about 59 minutes. He performed this work with the San Francisco Symphony a number of years ago. I was prepared for all the repeats, but he did not do them. The whole thing was over in about 45 minutes. I felt like demanding my money back. I now play the Boult EMI recording and relish all 54 minutes of it. His scherzo is the longest of the four movements, and not a second too long. As mentioned in another Discussion topic about critics, David Hurwitz of Classicstoday hated every minute of it. Anybody agree with him?
That is the first time, ever, I've read or heard anybody complain about a performance of the "Great" being to short!
Some think its "Heavenly length" is a bit to "heavenly."
We're reduced to correcting grammar now, are we. I thought you were leaving and, yet, here you are hanging around like a bad smell with your constant stream of banality.
How on earth you find my comment so annoying is beyond me but I suspect that you read what you expect to read in posts.
"Do you get out much?" is the best that you can do? Better throw that book of cliches away old man.
Please, do not stay in on my account. Get out...and about.
What is it with you Americans?
I'm touchy?
I mention my experience of comments on short performances of the "Great" and you jump down my throat.
It's a pity that you didn't ask for your money back as I am sure that you would have been laughed out of the concert hall.
Have concerts to be of a certain duration before you feel that you have had true value for money?
Anyway, why are you still here?
I ask, again, as you were adamant that you were going.
Or have you "gone" and come back?
Complete this phrase or well known saying: "Where ignorance is..."
Sun, May 6 2012, 12:36AM
#4
RE: Norrington?
One of the "two idiots (!)" (be mindful that, while I see your style as entertaining or even amusing, sometimes you become truly offensive, apart from being rude, etc.) happened to have bought the Brahms/Manze set.
While, most probably my view doesn't count (as an "idiot"?), this is what I can tell you, for all it's worth (to you):
Aggressive in the outer movements, brilliant cohesion of the orchestra, particularly in the First movement of the First Symphony and the Finale of the Third. However, the overall impression is that the essence of these so well-known Symphonies is missing, despite the virtuosity of the orchestra and the integrity of Manze. The recording is impressive, in quite good SACD sound.
Parla
Sun, May 6 2012, 1:31AM
#5
RE: beautiful
In most cases, at least when we deal with the great composers, it's the latter, Tagalie. It's the structure that matters, not necessarily (or always) to familiarize the audience with the main themes.
I think you'll find there are several views out there and since the guys that wrote them aren't still around to ask, it's all hypothesis.
To me, the most likely scenario is that they put in repeats to familiarise the audience with their main themes. Having done that they knew they had to balance the rest of the work accordingly, which lends much credibility to the view that many works sound unbalanced when played repeatless. It's very easy to imagine that had recordings been available back in the days of Haydn/Mozart/Beethoven, repeats would have vanished.
I haven't heard the Manze recordings, Troyen. In a world of finite money and lots of claims on it, I've closed the book on Brahms symphony recordings. Kempe is the last word as far as I'm concerned.
Sun, May 6 2012, 2:01AM
#6
RE: Norrington?
I'm touchy?
I mention my experience of comments on short performances of the "Great" and you jump down my throat.
It's a pity that you didn't ask for your money back as I am sure that you would have been laughed out of the concert hall.
Have concerts to be of a certain duration before you feel that you have had true value for money?
Anyway, why are you still here?
I ask, again, as you were adamant that you were going.
Or have you "gone" and come back?
Complete this phrase or well known saying: "Where ignorance is..."
[/quote]
What is wrong with you, anyway? You go out of your way to twist everything I ( and everyone else) says that doesn't match your opinions. And how many times must you use the same old stuff about me going? Are you in charge of the forum? And talk about cliches - how many more times must I read "Ignorance is..."? Come up with something original, will you. Make your parents proud.
Sun, May 6 2012, 11:28PM
#7
RE: Norrington?
I'm touchy?
I mention my experience of comments on short performances of the "Great" and you jump down my throat.
It's a pity that you didn't ask for your money back as I am sure that you would have been laughed out of the concert hall.
Have concerts to be of a certain duration before you feel that you have had true value for money?
Anyway, why are you still here?
I ask, again, as you were adamant that you were going.
Or have you "gone" and come back?
Complete this phrase or well known saying: "Where ignorance is..."
It wasn't my intention but I seem to have touched a nerve.
You said you were going and I thought you were quite adamant, and here you are, still, indulging in the very kind of debate, and not for the first time, I thought, that annoyed you into quitting the site in the first place.
Now you insist I'm twisting everything.
Your backpedalling is worthy of one other on the site I dare not mention to avoid the risk of a lengthy diatribe, as is your avoidance, yet again, of my question.
You'll read "Where ignorance is..." as often as I choose to use it as there is nothing wrong with cliches as long as they are effective and this one seems to have had its effect on you!
Mon, May 7 2012, 1:12AM
#8
RE: Norrington?
I'm touchy?
I mention my experience of comments on short performances of the "Great" and you jump down my throat.
It's a pity that you didn't ask for your money back as I am sure that you would have been laughed out of the concert hall.
Have concerts to be of a certain duration before you feel that you have had true value for money?
Anyway, why are you still here?
I ask, again, as you were adamant that you were going.
Or have you "gone" and come back?
Complete this phrase or well known saying: "Where ignorance is..."
It wasn't my intention but I seem to have touched a nerve.
You said you were going and I thought you were quite adamant, and here you are, still, indulging in the very kind of debate, and not for the first time, I thought, that annoyed you into quitting the site in the first place.
Now you insist I'm twisting everything.
Your backpedalling is worthy of one other on the site I dare not mention to avoid the risk of a lengthy diatribe, as is your avoidance, yet again, of my question.
You'll read "Where ignorance is..." as often as I choose to use it as there is nothing wrong with cliches as long as they are effective and this one seems to have had its effect on you!
[/quote]
To Troyen 1:
The fact that you keep answering these posts without actually answering my questions seems to me that you are the one affected. You could just answer this one question - "what's it to you that I'm still posting?" - or just ignore the whole thing. By the way you made another grammatical error on a post to Parla today. Clue: the word is misspelled and also needs an apostrophe. Eton graduate you're not.
Mon, May 7 2012, 11:18PM
#9
RE: Norrington?
I'm touchy?
I mention my experience of comments on short performances of the "Great" and you jump down my throat.
It's a pity that you didn't ask for your money back as I am sure that you would have been laughed out of the concert hall.
Have concerts to be of a certain duration before you feel that you have had true value for money?
Anyway, why are you still here?
I ask, again, as you were adamant that you were going.
Or have you "gone" and come back?
Complete this phrase or well known saying: "Where ignorance is..."
It wasn't my intention but I seem to have touched a nerve.
You said you were going and I thought you were quite adamant, and here you are, still, indulging in the very kind of debate, and not for the first time, I thought, that annoyed you into quitting the site in the first place.
Now you insist I'm twisting everything.
Your backpedalling is worthy of one other on the site I dare not mention to avoid the risk of a lengthy diatribe, as is your avoidance, yet again, of my question.
You'll read "Where ignorance is..." as often as I choose to use it as there is nothing wrong with cliches as long as they are effective and this one seems to have had its effect on you!
It menes nothin too me that you are stil posting exsept that you take evry oportunity to atack and harriss me but you did staet kwite fermlee I fort and gave reesins.
Now yew ar triein too be nyce by seying im not a Eton graduate.
Is this yure onlee poest terdey! It luks lyk eet.
Do you teach english?
Tue, May 8 2012, 1:07AM
#10
RE: Norrington?
Yes Trojen1, this will probably be my only post today. Just got back from conducting a seminar on the works of Thomas Gray. Besides, it's probably past your bed time.
Mon, Aug 13 2012, 7:49PM
#11
RE: Norrington?
I was hoping to find someone who might be able to suggest why, half an hour after listening to Norrington's Beethoven symphonies, I can't for the life of me recall anything he actually does. is this good, or bad? I have to say I admired his work with Kent opera, and his Berlioz, but that's a while ago now. And I'm still waiting for the evidence for his views on vibrato in Elgar, since, as it happens, I'm from Manchester originally, and, of course, the Halle, under Richter, gave the first performance of the Ab Symphony. Somewhere in the band there may well have been pupils of Adolf Brodsky. As time went on, probably more than a few. Where did Brodsky stand on vibrato? No-one seems to have mentioned his name in this context. Odd. Instead folk seem to be chewing the carpet about anyone or anything but Norrington. is the dust likely to settle soon?
Mon, Aug 13 2012, 10:39PM
#12
RE: Norrington?
I was hoping to find someone who might be able to suggest why, half an hour after listening to Norrington's Beethoven symphonies, I can't for the life of me recall anything he actually does. is this good, or bad?
Where did Brodsky stand on vibrato? No-one seems to have mentioned his name in this context. Odd. Instead folk seem to be chewing the carpet about anyone or anything but Norrington. is the dust likely to settle soon?
On the first point, try turning the volume up, as we get older our hearing does tend to go a little. If this doesn't help then, do you find you have difficulty in recalling everyday things as well. Age does catch up with us all eventually. On the second point, arr Brodsky, his name is not often mentioned in these quarters, but if my memory serves me well, I believe he sat most of the time. Vibrato could certainly damage the knees. And finally, never chew carpet, it is impossible to digest and may get stuck in your tummy-wumpkins.
Tue, Aug 14 2012, 11:54AM
#13
RE: Norrington? RE: Norrington?
Bad Monday, Uber Alice? Try a smidgeon of carpet, even so. Garlic helps.
In most cases, at least when we deal with the great composers, it's the latter, Tagalie. It's the structure that matters, not necessarily (or always) to familiarize the audience with the main themes.
Beethoven, being a bit smarter, he preferred to play with the form rather than resorting to identical repeats (though in the Symphonies, he made some exceptions). In the second movement of his Violin Sonata in G, op.30 no.3, he repeats the theme (admittedly very beautiful and moving) four times, each time with slight and minor alterations, showing that he wanted the audience to consolidate the theme and, eventually, embrace the whole movement.
Parla