Piano music on period instruments
Sun, Oct 21 2012, 1:22PM
I am just interested on forum users opinions on playing a 19th century piano music on period instruments as a contemporary recital practice ( Liszt on early German pianos, Chopin on something else than Pleyel etc.). Also what do you think of early piano roll recordings? Thank you for recommendations.
Sun, Oct 21 2012, 5:13PM
#2
RE: Piano music on period instruments
Period strings, period woodwind, period brass, period timpani - all wonderful. But period pianos just sound like bad modern pianos - twangy, honky-tonky, tinny. I can't for the life of me understand how anyone could listen to them for pleasure. I have several (celebrated) recordings (Beethoven and Mozart, mainly) and most of them are just awful. I have one by Andras Schiff playing on a piano supposedly owned by Mozart himself and that sounds quite nice - a sweet light sound, more like a harpsichord, or even a harp in places. But on the whole, period pianos are just crap and I fully intend to avoid them for the rest of my earthly life.
I haven't heard many piano rolls.........I thought there was a problem recording dymanics on them?
Sun, Oct 21 2012, 11:13PM
#3
RE: Piano music on period instruments
Agree with Eliza on period pianos; frustrating, virtually unlistenable and only make me want to hear the work played on a "proper" piano. But then I'm not enamoured of period instruments in general! Rather oddly though I do prefer JS Bach's keyboard concerti on harpsichord rather than piano but with a modern chamber orch (in particular the Wurtembug/Faerber & Zagreb/Janigro recordings).
Piano rolls are a different matter which have caused much debate over the years. I have a vague recollection of controversy in Gramophone on a grand scale years ago when a series was issued on Argo (Rachmaninoff et al?). It was said they could be easily "doctored" with regard to speeds and edits but probably less so than the modern digital editing computer! My concern was how accurately they reproduced the so imortant touch or actual sound of the pianist concerned and would always prefer a 78 recording although I do find that pre-electric (ie pre 1925) recordings can be difficult to listen to.
Moiseiwitsch made a number of piano rolls and promoted them at concerts seemingly playing the piano then getting up and walking away as it was actually the roll playing.
Mon, Oct 22 2012, 12:18AM
#4
RE: Piano music on period instruments
The period Piano instruments have a beauty that is of their own, very original and built upon their limitations, as more or less is the case with the harpsichord.
Period instruments need repeated listening and enough research to start comprehending how they work and how they sound, on different occasions and recordings. There are some wonderful (and very precious) instruments extremely well reconstructed. Their sound is truly colourful compared to the very homogenous of the modern pianos. While today, you must have an extremely high-end equipment to realize the difference between a Fazioli and a Bosenbdorfer, in the period instruments it is a delight to explore the sound of every individual instrument, even within the Graf family or the Walter or the Erard.
On the other hand, one should not forget that all these composers worked with these instruments and not the modern (perfectly working) pianos. So, their compositions had to face the limitations of those instruments and to be written for them. As the great pianist N. Demidenko had said once, when he had to perform Mozart's Sonatas on a Grand Steinway: To play these works on a modern instrument is like playing a transcription of them. One has to adjust the way to use the pedals, to sustain the notes that, in period instruments could not been sustained anyway but for few seconds, due to the limitations of the instruments, and many more details of keeping the original sound of the works.
Besides, great pianists, like Paul Badura-Skoda and Ronald Brautigam or Riko Fukuda have worked on both period and modern instruments. However, they turn more often to the period instruments, with great success. Particularly, Brautigam has a great variety of recordings of enormous beauty in Mozart, Haydn and Beethoven so far. Fukuda has a wonderful Mendelssohn recital on Aliud, in wonderful instruments, as well as recreating a series of neglected or forgotten masterworks of the 19th century for Piano Quintet (for the combination of Schubert's Trout, namely Fortepiano, Violin, Viola, Cello and Double Bass), on Brilliant.
In sum, I can listen to both modern and period instruments, but, while listening to modern pianos seems a bit monotonous in terms of the homogenous sound, I truly enjoy the colours of these instruments from all these different eras. I just have to recommend to anyone to listen to Badura-Skoda's Schubert (on Arcana). It's a subtle beauty of the real thing.
Finally, give a shot to the winning quite a few awards and accolades series of Mozart's Piano/Violin Sonatas with Podger and Cooper, on Channel Classics. It's a marvel that make the modern piano/violin ones to sound a bit irrelevant. In the same label, try also the solo SACD of G. Cooper with the late Piano(forte) Sonatas by Haydn, performed in a magnificent Walter instrument of 1795, perfectly reconstructed. It's a difficult but great revelation.
Parla
Mon, Oct 22 2012, 12:28AM
#5
RE: Piano music on period instruments
And I almost said Parla will no doubt disagree!
Mon, Oct 22 2012, 12:47AM
#6
RE: Piano music on period instruments
...And I almost said, 33lp, you have not yet been there...
Parla
Mon, Oct 22 2012, 2:39AM
#7
RE: Piano music on period instruments
Parla,
I've heard some of Mr. Brautigam's recordings and have enjoyed them. Haven't quite gotten to the purchasing aspect yet, but I'm sure that I will eventually. For me, at least, it does take a very special pianist and performance for me to step away from a recording on a modern day piano I must admit! :-)
All good wishes,
Petra
Mon, Oct 22 2012, 2:41AM
#8
RE: Piano music on period instruments
Mary,
Do you like any recordings on the harpsichord with artists like Rousset (who I greatly enjoy)?
Best wishes,
Petra
Mon, Oct 22 2012, 2:58PM
#9
RE: Piano music on period instruments
Interesting thread. For me the problem is this: I don't have any difficulty with all that Parla has written about the qualities of the early fortepianos, their variety of tone and their being the instruments for which the works were written. But, try as a might I do not enjoy the sound they make, and can only agree with Eliza, Sid and 33lp here. Whatever the head says the heart says otherwise. Perhaps it's 50+ years of conditioning. On the other hand I've easily been able to recognise the characteristic sound of a Bosendorfer piano for most of those 50 years, many of them without particularly hi fi.
However I am trying Brautigam's Haydn sonata recordings. Just give me another 50 years! (It took me less than half that time to get used to other 'original' instruments).
Chris
PS (Parla): The Prazak Op.71 CD will be released in the UK on 5 November. I'm expecting fireworks.
Chris
Mon, Oct 22 2012, 4:43PM
#10
RE: Piano music on period instruments
Parla,
Can't we put this down to a difference of taste rather than expertise or experience?
It's not that I haven't listened to period performances: I have - quite a lot, given I don't really enjoy them. I have a fair number of recordings, including Andreas Staier (Schubert), Melnikov (late Brahms intermezzi), Steven Lubin (Beethoven sonatas and concerti)..........and some of the Podger Mozart sonatas you mention. I've also read a few quite a bit on the development of the keyboard and so on; the subject is really interesting. BUT........but I just don't like the sound period pianos produce. I had a listen just now to remind myself and I really don't like it. In addition, I don't find the sound of modern pianos to be monotonous any more than I find the sound of the violin monotonous. (Does Richter sound anything like Gould to you?) Every great pianist seems to have their own particular sound and that's more than enough variety for me.
Mon, Oct 22 2012, 6:16PM
#11
RE: Piano music on period instruments
Eliza, of course we may agree, as a "bottom line" or as the "end of the day", that the whole issue is a "difference of taste". However, till we reach this final stage, experience and expertise may change the course of the line and we may reach another destination.
You see the soloists you and I mentioned, plus many more, opt for the original instruments, because the works, at least up to mid-Romanticism, were written for these old instruments. Performing them on modern, luxurious, almost perfect pianos constitute an adaptation, in some cases even a transcription, of the original score.
In order to love and appreciate the Fortepiano, or even worse the Tangent or Square Piano, you have to get to know how this instrument has been built, how it functions and what its sound actually is and represents. I have noticed how "unprepared" or "new" listeners abhor the sound even of the best violinist or flutist. Others never get the immense concealed beauty of the Double Bass, while others make fun for the sound of a trombone etc.
Besides, the modern pianos, which have quite different features eclipsing the limitations of the old pianos, were made primarily to accommodate the much more demanding and virtuosic compositions of the late 19th century and onwards. That's why their sound is homogenous; they don't need the colour, since the quite demanding and virtuosic compositions can offer enough colour, variety in tone etc. However, to play Bach, Haydn, Mozart etc. on these modern pianos can make the whole composition sound as a perfect, very refined, extremely polished but colourless and flat work. The original instruments give all these nuances, colours, natural change in dynamics (and not because of some excessive arbitrary use of the pedals) and the charme of the period of the composition.
Finally, the issue is not the sound of Richter versus Gould (or the Steinway versus Fazioli), but whether the modern instruments serve genuinely (and exclusively) the works of the previous centuries.
In any case, if your taste only is going to guide you in your journey to Classical Music, you may neglect my suggestions. Otherwise, the revelation, even if it delays, is unbelievably rewarding.
Parla
Mon, Oct 22 2012, 10:23PM
#12
RE: Piano music on period instruments
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Mon, Oct 22 2012, 7:26PM
#13
RE: Piano music on period instruments
If you play an instrument, such as a flute, you will probably have an interest in the history of the instrument and enjoy listening to early flutes, regardless of the quality of the sound. The same goes for a fortepiano. If you have an interest in 'classical' music you will probably have an interest in the development of instruments and sound. I have a few recordings featuring early pianos, but very few I enjoy over the same piece played on a modern piano. The Chopin is one, Staier playing the Schumann piano concerto (DHM) is good but would I pick it over Richter (DG) playing a modern piano but in not well recorded sound. Most piano recordings pre 1960 sound like early pianos anyway.
Tue, Oct 23 2012, 1:43AM
#14
RE: Piano music on period instruments
This is an interesting discussion but I just cannot find myself taking sides as take one would be to discount the other.
I understand why many may feel the fortepiano an inferior instrument, and certainly I am sure I would feel the same way but for the fact that when I hear somebody like Ronald Brautigam play a fortepiano the first thing I hear is just wonderful music. In Beethoven I would not want to part with any of my favourite recordings (Kempff, Gilels, Arrau, Pollini, Brendel, Brautigam etc.) because each adds something to my understanding of this music. There is something beyond sound, which I can only describe simply as communication, and I get that from Brautigam's recordings.
I wish I had the logic of others thoughts - I find the harpsichord far more difficult to listen to than a fortepiano. And I am not sold on the fortepiano as a principle - the short video I saw recently of Ashley Wass playing Liszt's transcription of Beethoven's Pastoral symphony left me unconvinced of his ideas for the music. The timbre was fine - I just did not love the playing.
For those perverse few who are interested I am very happy to see Brautigam has turned his attention to Mendelssohn - as with all Brautigam's recordings this is an immediate must buy for me. But I won't sell Barenboim!
Tue, Oct 23 2012, 12:17AM
#15
RE: Piano music on period instruments
Very well said, Naupilus.
By defending the period instruments, I don't mean to discount the modern ones either. I just make my point that the original instruments serve very genuinely and effectively the works written for them. Modern pianos add, at least, the gloss and glamour to them. Along with the great artistry and musicianship of famous soloists, modern pianos can easily win over the original ones. This does not mean we have to discredit the period instruments, which, we are so fortunate to still have them...around.
I think this Mendelssohn with Brautigam may surpass the lovely SACD of Fukuda, on Aliud. However, the latter is so lovely, anyway.
Far too often early pianos can sound like a bag of nails being hit with a hammer. Getting a good sound is very important. I have a recording of Chopin's piano concertos (Ax, Mackerras) in which, particularily in the first concerto, the sound of a period orchesrtra with a period piano actually improves the concerto. On a modern piano it can sound overblown for it's light material, almost however it is played, but a period piano almost says 'this is a light piece'. This I suppose can be the problem for other works such as beethoven. I'd love to hear the 3rd played on a modern piano but with a period orchestra. But a period piano in Beethoven, I'm not convinced it offers anything.