Piano music on period instruments
Tue, Oct 23 2012, 4:37PM
#2
RE: Piano music on period instruments
Interesting Parla, and you don't even have to get involved in the debate about fortepianos etc, to feel some regret for the loss of diversity of 'modern' pianos. Erard long gone, but Bechstein, Bluethner too, and the fate of Bosendorfer uncertain.
Chris
Tue, Oct 23 2012, 5:23PM
#3
RE: Piano music on period instruments
Well actually Parla I have been there. It must be 40 years since I bought one of the first period instrument recordings which the LP cover describes as using "authentic instruments" ; the Collegium Aureum playing Handel's Water Music on a BASF Harmonia Mundi recording. I put it on last night for the first time in years and how dull & dreary it sounds. I soon took it off and put on the Vanguard CD of Sommary conducting the ECO when it was at its peak: the music came to life with glorious sounds, superb string playing and brisker speeds.
I also still have some open reel tapes taken off the Third Programme (Radio 3's predecessor for non-oldies) of Malcolm Binns playing old instruments in music by Clementi, Field & JL Dussek when virtually no commercial recordings by these composers were available (Horowitz's Clementi being perhaps the sole exception). More recently I have a CD by Staier playing JL Dussek (again because there's no modern instrument performance) and to me his fortes can sound quite unpleasant as though he is trying to force the instrument beyond its capability and I'm only left with the wish to hear this music on a modern instrument.
I would not describe my equipment as "extremely high end" but I have no difficulty in noting Annie Fischer's Bosendorfer Beethoven (Hungaroton) sounds different to her EMI & BBC Beethoven recordings, presumably on a Steinway which she played when I heard her live. Equally one can tell easily the lighter sound ,paticularly in the bass register, on Angela Hewitt's Faziola Beethoven. Even at Abbey Road on 78s in the 1930s, Schnabel's Bechstein sounds different to say Cortot's or Moiseiwitsch's recordings.
I've only one known recording on a Bluthner, Mark Hambourg's daughter recorded at home on her father's instrument, which does sound different too (I have read but forgotten the details - doesn't it have an extra undamped string?).
Tue, Oct 23 2012, 10:34PM
#4
RE: Piano music on period instruments
With all due respect, 33lp, if you believe you "have been there" with one recording of Collegium Aureum, one of Staier with music of Dussek and some reel tapes of Malcolm Binns, allow me to say you are still too far from there.
I have some thousands of CDs/SACDs with period performances on various instrumental forces as well as works with vocal forces. So, I can tell the difference in a deeper way.
The Collegium Aureum recordings might have suffered, despite tha fact that there are some well remastered, which, in a proper equipment can produce some unexpected pleasant surprises. However, even if you cannot be convinced by this group, there are so many others who thrive : Concentus Musicus, Leonhardt Consort, Les Talents Lyriques, La Petite Bande and many more. In the soloist's realm, there are hundreds of superb specialists or even pianists who perform on period instruments, with amazing results. Just recently, I listened to Brahms' Violin Sonatas on period instruments (the piano was a magnificent Streicher, in excellent condition). The experience was amazing and unique. Likewise, I had the experience to listen to two different recordings (on original instruments) of Schumann's Piano Trios. A much more intimate and more nuanced view of these sombre and difficult to penetrate works.
I'm glad you can really hear the difference between the modern pianos. On blind tests, professional musicians are easily mistaken. By the way, Fazioli has an excellent Bass register, which, unfortunately, thanks to Hyperion engineering sounds "lighter". The problem with modern pianos lies on the fact that, even if you may notice a difference, it does not change the impact of the listening experience, at least to a great extent. However, the difference among the various original instruments, even within the same manufacturer, is striking.
Finally, if you wish to listen to Dussek's music on modern pianos, there are quite a few recordings. I state some I own and know well:
-On Integral, there are two recordings, one with Irene Polya and a better and more recent one with Lisa Yui.
-On CPO, there are a couple of CDs with Marcus Becker, covering a good variety of the Piano Sonatas.
-On VMS, there is the Vol.1 (obviously there was no interest and/or funding for a second one) of the Piano Sonatas with Maria Garzon.
-On Hungaroton, there is a fine and interesting CD with the works for Piano Four Hands.
Good hunting, if you're still interested.
Parla
Tue, Oct 23 2012, 11:18PM
#5
RE: Piano music on period instruments
Well Parla over many years I've tried to listen to many period bands live on Radio 3 and after years of hearing some of those you mention on Gramophone cover CDs I've never yet been tempted by an excerpt that has made me rush out to buy it. All they do is make me want to hear a modern chamber orchestra. After Jacobs' Figaro won the Gramophone award I bought it but have still never got to the end as I always end up taking it off and putting another version on.
Thanks though for the comments on Dussek recordings, I haven't looked for some time and VMS & Integral are new labels to me. Must make sure it's the correct Dussek. I once bought (by mail order) a Supraphon LP of "Dussek" but rather than Jan Ladislav Dussek it turned out to be by one Frantisek Xaver Dusek! (I wonder if Dutton's pianist Michael Dussek claims to be a descendant?)
Tue, Oct 23 2012, 11:25PM
#6
RE: Piano music on period instruments
Yes, 33lp, it's the correct Dussek. VMS is a tiny, very independent Austrian label and Integral a French good one. I hope you'll locate them. Integral can be found through Fnac and, of course, Amazon.fr.
The Piano Concertos exists, as far as I know, only on Fortepianos...unfortunartely...for you.
All the best,
Parla
Wed, Oct 24 2012, 12:02PM
#7
RE: Piano music on period instruments
Thanks, Parla, yes I have got a JL Dussek concerto recording on fortepiano!
Wed, Oct 24 2012, 8:50PM
#8
RE: Piano music on period instruments
Parla
First you had my interest, now you have my attention...
Please would give some more details about the two 'period' Schumann Trio recordings? I would be very interested in hearing these works with what must be a different balance.
Wed, Oct 24 2012, 11:54PM
#9
RE: Piano music on period instruments
Here they are, Naupilus:
- One on Challenge Classics: Piano Trios Nos 1 & 3, with the Voces Intimae Trio. A very "intimate" but highly refined version indeed. (The Trio has done an excellent cycle of all Hummel Piano Trios on Warner too).
- The other on Avie: Piano Trios No 1 & 3 with The Benvenue Fortepiano Trio. A sort of "stars" group (Monica Huggett on violin, Tanya Tomkins on cello and Eric Zivian on the Fortepiano). A stronger, rougher but more exciting reading. The vol.2 with the Trio no.2 in F is to be released shortly (The group has done also a very compelling Mendelssohn too).
I would suggest to pursue both. Otherwise, opt probably the Benvenue F. Trio. It sounds more interesting/exciting to me.
Parla
Thu, Oct 25 2012, 11:10AM
#10
RE: Piano music on period instruments
Thank you for this very highly informative reading. Some of those performances, scholarly interest aside, are fascinating for their "otherworldly" qualities of sound, aesthetics and contain an ocean of imagination, so different, to my taste, from today's globally sterile, uniformed approach. I have been recently listening to:
Vladimir de Pachmann plays Chopin Etude Op.10 No 1
Erwin Nyiregyhazi plays Mazeppa (piano roll)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HfkvDR87dZQ
Erwin Nyiregyhazi plays Brahms on modern piano
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tSa0YvNmkb0
Chopin concerto on 1850 Erard
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QM3HHhqwNv8
Giovanni Velluti plays Chopin Valse Op.64 No 2
Jozef Kapustka plays Chopin Berceuse and Barcarolle
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0UmpljUe6TE
Michele Boegner plays Chopin Nocturnes on 1836 Pleyel
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hGmAeSuLPb0
Sandro Russo plays Liszt Consolation No.3 on Liszt's own 1862 Bechstein
Thu, Oct 25 2012, 9:06PM
#11
RE: Piano music on period instruments
I haven't looked yet but intresting to see a mention of Nyiregyhazi some of whose recordings were issued by VAI. On The VAI 2CD of Liszt's Hungarian Rhapsodies each with a different pianist, that by Nyireghazi really does have a different piano sound. I don't know what had been done to it or what piano it was but it almost sounds like a cimbalom! He also takes considerable liberties with the score.
Pachmann, of course, born (just) in Chopin's lifetime had become somewhat eccentric by the time of elecrical recording, talking over his playing but occasionally an interesting bit of light shines through showing how he was once thought of as a great Chopin pianist. The playing on the acoustic recordings is better but they can be difficult to listen too. (I like the recording system where someone shouts something at the beginning telling him to start!).
A very surprisingly pertinent brand new release (in UK, it is to be released on Nov.12) by the very good label Channel Classics, in SACD format.
The very fine pianist Paolo Giacometti endeavours to an unexpected project of comparison of an identical program of some of the best Ravel piano music, played both on an Erard (of Ravel's time) and a modern Steinway. The SACD is called "Compared" and it constitutes the Vol.1 of the whole project.
So, apparently, based on the wisdom, experience and expertise of the good pianist, it is worthwhile to examine and compare the original instruments too, even in 20th century works.
Parla