Repeats?

52 replies [Last post]
BazzaRiley
BazzaRiley's picture
Offline
Joined: 14th Mar 2010
Posts: 314
RE: Repeats?

50milliarden wrote:

Joke went over my head, Bazza... :) Care to explain?

Sorry, 50milliarden. I just don't remember too much "classical sonata form", "second
exposition" or, for that matter, "key" in Birtwistle's work. ;-)

50milliarden
50milliarden's picture
Offline
Joined: 19th Oct 2012
Posts: 186
RE: Repeats?

BazzaRiley wrote:

50milliarden wrote:

Joke went over my head, Bazza... :) Care to explain?

Sorry, 50milliarden. I just don't remember too much "classical sonata form", "second
exposition" or, for that matter, "key" in Birtwistle's work. ;-)

I'm sure I'm gonna make a fool of myself... but I still don't get it. What's got Birtwistle to do with this?

c hris johnson
c hris johnson's picture
Online
Joined: 8th Sep 2010
Posts: 791
RE: Repeats?

Bazza's getting nervous as 8.00 approaches.  But I'm not sure that helps, 50m.

__________________

Chris A.Gnostic

tagalie
tagalie's picture
Offline
Joined: 29th Mar 2010
Posts: 798
RE: Repeats?

50M, I see you've been canonized up at the top of this page.

I've waited through a weekend of garbage fixtures for this game. If it ends with 22 men on the field it'll be a letdown.

BazzaRiley
BazzaRiley's picture
Offline
Joined: 14th Mar 2010
Posts: 314
RE: Repeats?

Chris, you weren't wrong. Darn that Bale.

 

 

eyeresist
eyeresist's picture
Offline
Joined: 15th Mar 2010
Posts: 113
RE: Repeats?

50milliarden wrote:
Personally I think that the more complex the exposition is, the more the need is there for a repeat. Omitting the repeat in a complex sonata form will destroy the sense of formal unity and make the piece sound like a random succession of themes. For instance, in many cases, when the exposition is fairly complex and has a lot of development of the thematic material already, going directly into the development section just makes that sound like it's a progression of the exposition, which can be very confusing to the listener.

To play devil's advocate:

If the transition into development is unclear, doesn't this mean either the point of transition is unimportant OR the composer has been inadequate? Repeating the entire exposition just to make the distinction clear is arguably like buttressing a collapsing wall instead of repairing the wall itself.

__________________

'Art doesn't need philosophers. It just needs to communicate from soul to soul.' Alejandro Jodorowsky

c hris johnson
c hris johnson's picture
Online
Joined: 8th Sep 2010
Posts: 791
RE: Repeats?

Reading through all the posts in this fascinating thread, I reach a disappointing conclusion.

I wrote in my first response that we live in an age where taking every possible repeat seems to be considered necessary, especially in recordings. Reading all the subsequent posts it is obvious that most of think that is going too far or much too far.  And yet there is precious little consensus, in practical terms, on when repeats should be taken. I can't help but think that if I were a record producer reading these posts, I would likely conclude that the safest thing to do is to include the lot: anything else is likely to annoy someone somewhere. Perhaps that's why they do it!

Chris

PS: Bazza: sorry about the result. My Chelsea-supporter friends were all hoping for a different result too!

__________________

Chris A.Gnostic

tagalie
tagalie's picture
Offline
Joined: 29th Mar 2010
Posts: 798
RE: Repeats?

c hris johnson wrote:

 And yet there is precious little consensus, in practical terms, on when repeats should be taken. I can't help but think that if I were a record producer reading these posts, I would likely conclude that the safest thing to do is to include the lot: anything else is likely to annoy someone somewhere. Perhaps that's why they do it!

Chris

Perhaps there's so little consensus because individually we can't make up our own minds. Why I find repeats generally acceptable, even necessary, in Brahms and Mozart (perhaps Beethoven too) but not elsewhere, I can't say. Back when cds were full of index points as well as tracks it was probably feasible for us to make our own choices on the fly. Technically it has to be still possible without awkward gaps.

tjh212@yahoo.com
tjh212@yahoo.com's picture
Offline
Joined: 3rd Aug 2010
Posts: 41
RE: Repeats?

But even Karajan didn't dare not repeating Beethoven 5 expo.

However I never found an explanantion why he always repeated the 8th expo.

c hris johnson
c hris johnson's picture
Online
Joined: 8th Sep 2010
Posts: 791
RE: Repeats?

I agree Tagalie, and so they include all the repeats so as not to seriously offend anyone!

Also, I agree, it's a great pity they've forgotten about the index points. They were so useful.  I have a CD with the six French suites of Bach for example.  Each suite lasts ten minutes or so and usually has six short movements (no repeats taken!).  The sensible thing would be 6 tracks with index points for each movement. But no, 36 tracks. To listen to one suite I must programme in six tracks! And as you say it could be (and for a time was) useful in following through a continuous piece of music.

__________________

Chris A.Gnostic

33lp
33lp's picture
Offline
Joined: 29th Apr 2010
Posts: 486
RE: Repeats?

Quite a can of worms opened. On a general basis I tend to agree with the first 2 paras of Parla's first comment, although for some reason I'm less bothered about repeats in orchestral works than piano.  I have a single sided LP where Arrau is discussing the Beethoven 32 and he states repeats must be observed.

Some interesting comments though on particular works in particular Schubert D960. I'm surprised Brendel misses it but if he does then perhaps it's not surprising his former students Paul Lewis & Imogen Cooper do too. None of my recordings (and none of the live performances I've heard) include the rather odd linking passage referred to by Chris, until recently that is,  and when playing Juana Zayas's rather good (and stunningly recorded) version for the first time this passage greatly startled me in a work I thought I thought I knew pretty well! Schnabel still takes first prize for me though but not being a Richter fan haven't heard his critically divisive version (heard him once live in the 1960s when he was being much hyped - big disappointment).

With regard to H-D's comment on Britten's Mozart 40 this did provoke some critical comment at the time and I do think the very long 2nd mov unbalances the performance. With regard to Schubert 9, much as I rate Pritchard's performance the fact that he takes more repeats than any other recording (according to the Penguin Guide) can perhaps make it a little tedious...

With regard to Chris's last comment the medium has perhaps changed the message. In 78 days if repeats necessitated an extra side or sides there would have been a commercial disadvantage and even in LP days time limitations could have had more effect than today, so now include them all!

 

BazzaRiley
BazzaRiley's picture
Offline
Joined: 14th Mar 2010
Posts: 314
RE: Repeats?

Just sat through Neville Marriner's 14 1/2 minute rendition of the scherzo from Schubert's ninth. Every repeat taken. Surely too much of a good thing?

janeeliotgardiner
janeeliotgardiner's picture
Online
Joined: 22nd Nov 2012
Posts: 156
RE: Repeats?

Absolutely. There just isn't enough material there for 14 minutes. 

I love Schubert (he is one of my Top Five, after all), but not when the repeats are observed. 

Jane

ps Is it me or is this forum on the brink of death?

Bliss
Bliss's picture
Offline
Joined: 29th Mar 2010
Posts: 213
RE: Repeats?

BazzaRiley wrote:

Just sat through Neville Marriner's 14 1/2 minute rendition of the scherzo from Schubert's ninth. Every repeat taken. Surely too much of a good thing?

Too much of a good thing? Maybe with Marriner (haven't heard it) but not with Boult in his 1969 Proms concert (14:26) or his 1972 EMI studio performance (14:18). Maybe he followed his dictum of varying the repeats.

By the way Baz, I think I bought something from you on eBay in December of '08, that is if you were "Baz1947cricket" then.

__________________

Bliss

BazzaRiley
BazzaRiley's picture
Offline
Joined: 14th Mar 2010
Posts: 314
RE: Repeats?

Bliss wrote:
By the way Baz, I think I bought something from you on eBay in December of '08, that is if you were "Baz1947cricket" then.

1947? Cheeky bugger! LOL