Requiem: hundreds ways to sing it in the centuries
Sun, Oct 28 2012, 8:44PM
#2
RE: Requiem
Tagalie,
Just a quick reply for now. The Noone set on Archiv definitely includes the 1583 four-part setting of the requiem. I have listened to it along with the score which can be seen on line easily.. This set has only been available for a few months though, and in the notes Richard Noone mentions that it is the first recording. The contrast between the two works is so great that no one hearing them could mistake the one for the other. I strongly recommnd this set - at £28 for 10 CDs of wonderful music, beautifully sung - well what can I say?
It's late here now so I'll respond to more of your post tomorrow morning.
Chris
PS: Completely agree about the game. Too many bad decisions these days.
Sun, Oct 28 2012, 9:14PM
#3
RE: Requiem
Interesting, Chris. My interchange with Hyperion goes back a few months and I know the Archiv boxed set is a fairly recent issue so there's a chance they weren't aware of it at the time. That would also fit with the claim that this is the first recording. Hyperion were quite definite that, at up to that time, there had been none. Pity in a way, that might kibosh their own plans to record it.
Mon, Oct 29 2012, 1:45AM
#4
RE: Requiem
Since it's almost All-Saint's day (we celebrated it in our church today, official date is 1 nov.) 3 additions to this thread:
- The Giovanni Sgambati 1898 requiem.
Obscure piece with only one available recording (Stuttgart, Walddorfer). Can't say I'm very impressed. It's a rather oldfashioned work with many operatic influences. Way too long for its limited content, too.
- Fux, Kaiser-Requiem, available on a cheap Arte Nova cd with Rene Clemencic.
Impressive, sober and chilling work, in this recording successfully combined with the sombre sonorities of Fux works for solo trombones.
- Lloyd Webber. Any people who see any value in this? I listened to it once, an absolutely horrifying experience. People like L-W should be stay away 1000 miles from any text with more depth than the average musical libretto, i.m.o.
Mon, Oct 29 2012, 10:24AM
#5
RE: Requiem RE: Requiem
Hi Tagalie,
Good that you are back in full strength. Is it coincidence that the football season is now in full flow?
Back to Victoria! I've now listened again right through the 1583 Requiem (4 voices) including the Libera me. I know the other 1605 (six part) requiem very well and listened carefully for any overlap but found none. But it is a fine work, much less intense than the later work. The Michael Noone recording (not Richard Noone, sorry for that!) is very fine but a recording from Westminster Cathedral would I expect be even more interesting, and probably sound more intense. I completely agree with you about the Tenebrae Responsories. Astonishing music, superbly done by the Westminster Choir under David Hill. You may know there was a much earlier recording with the same choir under George Malcolm (Argo), made in 1959 when this music was still part of the Roman Catholic liturgy.
Do you have the more recent CD with the Mass and motet Trahe me, post te. The highlights of the disc for me (and one of the highlights of Victoria's music) are the four Marian motets, above all the eight-part Salve Regina. Incredible writing for double choir with the most wonderfully beautiful suspensions when it comes to O clemens, o pia, o dulcis Virgo Maria. Bruno Turner describes it as "one of the greatest achievements of any composer in the era of polyphonic music".
In a previous post I asked: By the way does anyone have any idea what musical forces were involved in the original performances. I have not been able to find anything. Did he have boys, or did thge nuns of the convent sing the upper parts? From your posts it's obvious that the person who would know if anyone does is Bruno Turner. Perhaps you could follow this up if you have been in correspondence with him, and if you'd be interested to know. I very much admire his writing on renaissance polyphony, and on Victoria in particular.
I imagine it must be difficult to record in Westminster Cathedral. During services the choir sings from a raised platform behind the altar. You need to be near the front for the singing to have much impact. I've no idea where the choir stands for the recordings though.
Anyway wonderful music! The Westminster Vidi Speciosam is probably the only one of their Victoria CDs that I don't have, and since the mass is not in the Archiv box (DG Archiv, not Archivmusik) there's an obvious cue for action here.
Chris
Mon, Oct 29 2012, 6:39PM
#6
RE: Requiem: hundreds ways to sing it in the centuries
Tagalie and Chris et al:
Your knowledge and enthusiasm you two in particular for Victoria is influencing me.
Chris I have just ordered today (inspired by what you said)the mass Trahe me post te on Amazon. It was real toss-up between that and the other one you mention. Alas the budget says only one this week!
The Salve Regina you mention is one of six dare I say it filler-ups on the Requiem 1605 by The Sixteen. Hardly fillers! Yes it is exceptionally beautiful; as well as that there are two settings of Ave Regina caelorum (a 8 and a 5) and three motets, of which Trahe me post te is outsanding and really leaps out at you.
Mark
Chris you are in luck - Harry Christophers says in his introduction to the cd that the Monasterio de las Descalzas realas, 'who may well have originally sung the Requiem, had twelve singing priests and four boys at its foundation, however, after 1600, the boys were increased to six in number'. Hope that helps. Of course scholarly research can often provide differing accounts so...as you two are aware!
Tagalie it was clearly a goal - such things are sent to try us!
Mon, Oct 29 2012, 7:06PM
#7
RE: Requiem RE: Requiem
I'm starting to feel like a Victoria junkie. Now I have to run out and get Trahe me, post te and Salve Regine. Worst part of trolling through the various Amazons when it comes to Victoria, is sifting out Beckham's wife and soft porn. How does a lingerie company find itself involved in music?
Re. musical forces for the original performance of the Officium Defunctorum, the notes accompanying the McCreesh cd might help. To quote:
In this recording it is performed at written pitch (with high clef [chiavetti] sections transposed downwards) for a typical Spanish cathedral choir of male voices: basses, baritones, tenors and high falsettists. In addition, the bass part is doubled by the bajon (dulcian) played coperto (muted), as required for requiem masses by a ceremonial published in Majorca in 1603.
Mon, Oct 29 2012, 9:22PM
#8
RE: Requiem RE: Requiem
Hi Mark and Tagalie!
Hope you both enjoy the Trahe me CD!
Thank you both very much for that much wanted information. It may not be wise to combine the two pieces but if there were 6 boys and 12 men and the men took the alto, tenor and bass parts, that would allow in the 6 part 1605 Requiem (SSATTB) three boys to each soprano part, and three men to each of the others. Almost too good to be true!
Chris
Mon, Oct 29 2012, 10:52PM
#9
RE: Requiem: hundreds ways to sing it in the centuries
Since we celebrate the Victoria mania, all those who might be interested in beyond his Requiem opus, please note that just very recently the small but very eclectic label Licanus released a quite beautifully packaged book with a CD with the specialised in the Renaissance group of Capella de Ministrels. The program deals with Victoria's music for the liturgies of Advent, Christmas etc. and focuses on his motets. A lovely present for Victoria fans.
A rather overlooked CD is the one of HM with the Spanish forces of the countertenor Carlos Mena and the lutist Juan Carlos Rivera dealing with the Motets for Solo Voice. Another aspect of a very beautiful Victoria.
Finally, The Sixteen, released (on their label Coro), last year, a new CD on Victoria's music (beyond their initial 5CD project, titled "Hail, Mother of the Redeemer". Some of the items of the program coincide with the Michael Noone 10CD project of Archiv. However, what count here is the brilliant and very refined performance of this expert group and his leader H. Christophers.
Chris, P. Herreweghe, in his very recent recording of the 1605 Requiem, uses 13 singers for the six voices of the score.
Parla
Tue, Oct 30 2012, 11:03AM
#10
RE: Requiem: hundreds ways to sing it in the centuries
Thanks Parla for the extra information on the Herrewege recording. Thirteen voices does seem a funny number for 6-part harmony though! Perhaps he used a different singer for the plainsong sections? Mark, I suppose the Sixteen must have numbered about .....er... 16. Westminster Cathedral must have about twice that number. According to Bruno Turner's notes for that recording, the Requiem Mass, which was performed at the funeral of Victoria's employer, the Dowager Empress, would not have been given in the convent but in the larger Church of St. Peter and St. Paul (no longer extant). Whether he would have had extra singers, perhaps singers from both the church and the convent, who knows?
Parla, I was very curious about the 'solo motets' disc you mentioned, since I had not heard of any such works by Victoria. It seems that these motets are in fact transcriptions of various choral (polyphonic) works transcribed by the singer for voice and lute.
Anyway, what wonderful music he wrote. I think the title of the Sixteen's DVD is "God's Composer". Seems appropriate.
Chris
Tue, Oct 30 2012, 1:04PM
#11
RE: When sixteen becomes eighteen!
Hi Chris:
To quote from Mr. Christophers again in the booklet which accompanies the 1605 Requiem:
'Now for those of you who wonder why we are called The Sixteen - even though there always seem to be eighteen of us these days - here's a little musical anecdote...(there then follows the explanation above re: the original forces)...When I formed The Sixteen, we started as sixteen singers to perform sixteenth century music, but, ten years later, I decided to increase the sopranos from four to six - history repeating itself!'
(Sixteens becoming eighteens? There used to be 11 players plus 5 subs - now it's 11 plus 7 subs!)
Mark
Sun, Nov 18 2012, 5:17PM
#12
RE: Requiem: hundreds ways to sing it in the centuries
This seemed the best place to leave a post for Mark, not unconnected to the thread: I'm sure you've long known this, being far more "on site" than I, but on Dec. 1 the LPO under V. Jurowski are doing Zimmermann's (BAZI's) Ecclesiastical Action, at the RFH I believe. An extraordinary piece, but also some intelligent programme planning, as it's paired with the Brahms Deutsches Requiem. Wish I could be there.
Sun, Nov 18 2012, 9:14PM
#13
RE: Requiem: hundreds ways to sing it in the centuries
Many thanks DST, and great to hear from you. It's a Saturday, if I'm correct, so I might be able to get there, it being a weekend concert and all...
And to you and Chris and Tagalie, - been on a work placement last couple of weeks (ongoing), so been absent. Haven't found time to listen to Missa Trahe me post te, but am off Tue and Wed this week, so hopefully...
Be back soon
Regards
Mark
Sat, Nov 24 2012, 6:07PM
#14
RE: Requiem: hundreds ways to sing it in the centuries
Chris, Tagalie et al...
The Missa Trahe me post te and motet are very appealing. The alleluias at the end of the motet are really something beautiful.
A joyful mass methought. The Sanctus and Benedictus particular highlights, though it's all good - well the last three movements really with the Agnus Dei.
Great purity from the choir of Westminster Cathedral too.
Mark
PS Though not a Requiem, I listened yesterday to Maxwell Davies' Missa Parvula for upper unison voices and organ also on Hyperion. Tagalie if that's Max I might become a convert! It's astonishingly beautiful, entirely dependent of course on flowing melody, very sensitively written for the boy's voices and with some sparse organ accompaniment. He manages to draw out a few darker colours as well, not unreminiscent of Brittens' Missa Brevis. Recommended.
Sat, Nov 24 2012, 6:55PM
#15
RE: Requiem: hundreds ways to sing it in the centuries
I thought you would enjoy it Mark!
For me the highlight is the performance of the 8-part Salve Regina. Such intensity!
What about the Morales Requiem. Anyone heard the versions by McReesh and Savall? Or any others?
Chris
Neither of these two works appear in the new Archiv Box, which therefore nicely complements the recordings of the Requiem Mass (and of the Tenebrae Responsories). The box does however include Victoria’s earlier (1583) setting of the Requiem Mass (sorry Tagalie but it is definitely included!),
No need to apologise to me, I'm just the messenger, but you might find you're at odds with Bruno Turner. I'm not going to quote directly from my correspondence with Hyperion, who were a huge help to me when I was trying to track down a recording of the first requiem, but I don't think I'm out of line to paraphrase what they had to say. They consulted Turner, who agreed there is all kinds of confusion over the two requiems. According to their investigations of available recordings claiming to be the 1583 work, none of them are correctly labelled and six of them come from Archivmusic.
For a glimpse of the tip of this iceberg, go to Amazon.com and read customers' reviews on the Westminster/Hill recording. Hyperion originally issued the recording at full price and have since re-issued it on what they call their 'red' label at mid price - I'm not sure if it's available world-wide on that label but it certainly is in North America. Out of the blue, some people have decided the red label issue is the 1583 work, the full price version is the 1605 requiem. Perhaps this is because part of the Officium Defunctorum is entitled 'Missa Pro Defunctis', which is of course the title of the earlier requiem.
Maybe a little of the blame attaches to Victoria himself. I seem to recall reading somewhere that at least one part of the 1605 mass is a rework of the 1583 requiem. When all's said and done, though, I have to say I find the presence of so much confusion amongst so many people with far deeper musical knowledge than me, delightful. 50 years ago I wouldn't have believed it. In the interim I've experienced it so often in so many fields it's hard to raise an eyebrow.
It's heartwarming to hear I'm not the only one who finds these Westminster Choir performances so captivating. If I'd started listening to them blindfold, I would never have identified the choir as English. Not to in any way denigrate the quality of English choirs, but there's a passion and fervour, almost rawness, that one doesn't normally associate with the English choral tradition. In particular, the open-throated sound of the boys is spectacular. The only snag is that, at least on my equipment, I have to knock the treble back a few notches on one or two of the recordings (Missa Vidi Speciosam for instance) to take an edge off the midrange. Apparently Westminster Cathedral is a notoriously difficult recording venue.
In the midst of this Renaissance buying spree (your fault, Mark) I did pick up some Guerrero but haven't been able to 'get into' it yet. The problem's probably mine, it's the same when I find an author I like. Until I exhaust his/her output, I can't listen to, or read, anything else.
Garbage officiating at the end of today's game (the real game, the earlier one). Offside? Not even close. We wuz robbed.