Searching for God in Classical Music
Sun, Jul 17 2011, 11:18PM
#2
RE: Searching for God in Classical Music
Troyen1 - what is it that confuses you about my contribution to this engaging debate?
Nothing. I was only stating that if you do not know the answer then you are not alone or were you being ironic? In which case I laugh at your wit and wisdom.
Either way, I do not know the answer.
Tue, Aug 16 2011, 5:48AM
#3
RE: Searching for God in Classical Music
It's funny you all talk about God, call yourselves "atheists", etc, while no one dares to define God, so that we may know what we're talking about. Of course, by definition, God cannot be defined (otherwise, he wouldn't be...God, he would be another...thing). Therefore, to call yourself "atheist" is...(I leave it to you to describe it). Simply, you cannot claim you don't believe in something you are not able to define!
As for me, I believe the Music, as the greatest and the most popular form of the performing Arts, constitutes the artistic expression of the indescribable but amazingly familiar...God: it glorifies the faith to the untold and unreachable truth of life, it sustains the hope for committing and performing the good, so that it may prevail, and it nourishes the love for each other as well as the mankind. With this in mind, God is in every note of a great piece of music (not necessarily in any form of abusing, misusing or destroying it, like Lady Gaga and people of her likes). Whether we will recognise God or not in music is our business, but that doesnot stop Him in being there, even at the ignorance of the composer himself! However, you have to contemplate, for a moment, if you ever felt a kind of redemption in listening to any piece of (classical) music or you felt an inexpressible confidence to life, which continues to defy words, going beyond any known human, scientific achievement and reaching spheres of the unknown but, at the same time, the most desired...If yes, then, you have been "there". (And I am sure you never regret it).
So, listen once more to the Missa Solemnis (with Klemperer please) or to Selva Morale e Spirituale of Monteverdi (with Harnoncourt, if you can find it), etc.
So long,
Parla
Tue, Aug 16 2011, 6:29AM
#4
RE: Searching for God in Classical Music
Hmmm... I think I'll stick with metaphor.
(I hope Lady Gaga doesn't get to see this. She'll be inconsolable.)
Vic.
Tue, Aug 16 2011, 10:00AM
#5
RE: Searching for God in Classical Music
I know a few great composers who would be extremely annoyed to be told that God is in every note of their music.
Tue, Aug 16 2011, 11:28AM
#6
RE: Searching for God in Classical Music
Whether these "great" composers know it or not, He is in every single note, provided that their music have the features mentioned in my intervention. Of course, if they wish to avoid Him in every single note or in an entire work, it's not that difficult. They just lower the bar...(No redemption, etc.). There are plenty of works of this nature, in any kind of music, including classical.
In any case, I never meant that composers (great or not) are religious people or they are connected with God. If they are so gifted to write truly great music, they are simply...blessed to provide to other people, anywhere, the redemption, untold joy, hope, faith, etc., even if they are annoyed.
So, when we listen to the very urban Cosi fan tutte, even if Mozart didn't mean it, God is there, since the music transcends the text (the conventions, the banalities and trivialities of the story) and provides the same results, in a more entertaining and different way, as his Requiem or the Great Mass in c minor.
Parla
Tue, Aug 16 2011, 11:38PM
#7
RE: Searching for God in Classical Music
Wouldn't be redemption through love by any chance would it because I've heard it somewhere before?
And God is in every note even if the composers do not know it? But does the Devil have all the best tunes?
Wed, Aug 17 2011, 3:03AM
#8
RE: Searching for God in Classical Music
Redemption may come in any form, even through laughter or humour. Rossini's music, whether he liked it or knew it, is divine, since it lead us to the higher level of having faith, hope and even love for anything happening on the stage or in our audio system (in our listening experience). Much more, redemption through love is a very common "thread" (Wagner's Tristan and so on).
Even if devil has some very nice tunes (if you mean Danse macabre, Devil's trill, Danse Bacchanale, Dance of the seven veils or even the Sympathy for the Devil), God lies in the development of the work, since the composer, eventually cannnot simply stick to the tune and he (by nature) tries to excell!.. In this journey, till finalizing the work, He is already there, even in a latent way.
A great man of our Church was told, sometime ago, that I went very rarely to any Mass or function of the church and I was not practicing what our Faith dictates. The Great Man replied : "Don't worry, he listens to the music extrensively". So?, the other people replied. "He has already sent the devil away".
Parla
Wed, Aug 17 2011, 8:34AM
#9
RE: Searching for God in Classical Music
Parla,
It is a pity, if pity is the right word, that the certainty you espouse, though an obvious joy to you, has such dire consequences for others.
For myself, music is an expression and confirmation of humanism. It disturbs us with questions and inspires us with beauty (for which the label divine seems a reasonable metaphor). What it does not and cannot do is provide the intolerance of certainty for any position.
Vic.
Wed, Aug 17 2011, 1:37PM
#10
RE: Searching for God in Classical Music
Vic,
Your last sentence is already a statement of certainty, which, if you put it in music, it could be easily an affirmation of an "intolerable certainty". If the music was that good to be..."metaphoric", then...(Wagner's music is a great statement - of utmost beauty by the way - of some "intolerable certainties" rather than "disturbing questions").
Anyway, I think our problem is not my certainty, but that I try to impose it to others. I just express my beliefs, as you do, after more than 30 years of almost everyday listening, going to concerts, dealing with musicians, artists and so on. (I really want to know what kind of "dire consequences" create and to whom).
Anyway, I think we have to try to comprehend rather than "label" each other, because we may say the same thing, but with other words, which, in your case, some of them might be...out of use. So, let's try :
First of all, despite the subject is about God in music, none dare to define him. So, we cannot speak of any "certainty" for something (or someone) undefined. I may speak about faith, hope and love, as my vehicle to what I may call or perceive as God. If you call It "metaphor", no problem. By the way, the word "metaphor" comes from the greek word "metafora". Since I happen to know very well greek (the reasons leave it for some other time), I have to inform you that, the word literally means "transfer". In further meaning is to transcend, to move to another level, normally superior. I have also to let you know that the people of quite a few religions are very happy with this word and they use it at will.
Secondly, I can fully agree about the music as the utmost confirmation of humanism. However, if humanism is the centrepiece of any civilization, I don't know any major civilization that excludes or separates the human aspect of it from any kind of divinity.
As for the "certainty", maybe the music cannot do it, as you claim, but that is not the matter. Anything else can do it and in a very intolerable way : Ideologies, Philosophies, Science, Politics, just name it. Besides, I'm not looking for any certainty; thank God there are plenty of definitions, laws, regulations and so on, which I found them much more offensive than my "certainty". What I see in certain great music is this Journey to the untold truth, happiness, even redemption through faith, hope and love. So far, I have never been betrayed. (By the way, I am not the only one).
Finally, if we may agree that there is something "extra" (transcendental, etc) in creating a work like Missa Sollemnis, or in the immense work of Bach, then, we are...there. So, we have a certainty. Then, we may sing it, maybe in a divine way, with plenty of metaphors. If you still disagree, then, let certainties wait. Maybe next year...
Parla
Wed, Aug 17 2011, 2:54PM
#11
RE: Searching for God in Classical Music
Hi Parla,
I share your train of thought. In my opinion, there are stimuli that can inspire one to believe there is more to life. That is confined to our limited senses. Music is one of them. There have been times, whilst listening. I have thought to myself, " there must be something of a divine existence to inspire this sort of thing." As for "certainty" we are all limited. We can only see so far. Being limited, we can hope to improve by whatever means. Music, I am glad to say, can help us on this quest.
Wed, Aug 17 2011, 4:40PM
#12
RE: Searching for God in Classical Music
It's funny you all talk about God, call yourselves "atheists", etc, while no one dares to define God, so that we may know what we're talking about. Of course, by definition, God cannot be defined (otherwise, he wouldn't be...God, he would be another...thing). Therefore, to call yourself "atheist" is...(I leave it to you to describe it). Simply, you cannot claim you don't believe in something you are not able to define!
Sure I can. I don't believe in square circles. Do you?
And it's probably best not to make assumptions about whether God is in great music, or even if the composer intended for Him to be. I'm a nonbeliever, but I love Josquin's masses. We know very little about Josquin's personality or beliefs. Was his work a tribute to the Almighty, or a gifted composer creating works that would please his prestigious patrons? We'll never know.
So why don't you enjoy the music for whatever reason you do, and I'll do the same?
-Gary
Wed, Aug 17 2011, 11:06PM
#13
RE: Searching for God in Classical Music
No I do not mean Danse Macabre. A laughable idea when one thinks its first performance made Saint-Saens' aunt faint and today is as frightening as Bela Lugosi's Dracula.
No doubt you will tell Rossini his music is divine when you get up there. I'm sure he'll be pleased and would wish he had charged more for it when on Earth.
Personally, at risk of putting the cat(black) amongst the pigeons, I find Ives' music to be the devil's music. All those hymn tunes and multi-bands. Surely he is trying to raise the devil with this unholy cacophony? If you play the 4th symphony backwards would you know the difference...? No, I do not mean that, but you can clearly hear the word beelzebub.
Thu, Aug 18 2011, 6:38AM
#14
RE: Searching for God in Classical Music
Sure I can. I don't believe in square circles. Do you?
-Gary
Nice try Gary, but we both know that if they made it an article of faith, of course they'd believe in square circles. Think of some of the other things on their list.
There's some fascinating potential in this subject but we're nowhere near it yet, I fear. The logic of it is eluding me so far. I could pray for guidance of course. Or I could listen to some more music. The Credo from JS's B minor mass is the closest I'm going to get to an answer, I guess. And it's close enough for me.
Vic.
Thu, Aug 18 2011, 2:47PM
#15
RE: Searching for God in Classical Music
It's pity (I thnk I know it's the right word), Vic too, you define and confine God with "squared circles", in order to defend that there is no God. I hope you don't confine Beethoven to "encircled squares", in order to prove that his music is great.
However, the question and the subject of this post is "searching God in Classical Music". If God, even without any defendable definition, does not exist, you have simply to state that the whole question is irrelevant and close the discussion. However, I see you are a way ahead to defend more than that.
From my part, I just replied that I do find God there (and this has nothing to do with the composers themselves, Gary, what they believe and what purposes they serve, but with the actual impact of the work and the listening experience itself), upon a specific conditionality. The question should be if you may converge in this conditionality or not. If you find even the slightest chance of tracing certain common features, like the beauty in music with the word divine, even as a metaphor, there is..."something" we cannot deny.
Since you are so good in rhetorical questions, I have one for you: Would you consider an orchestral piece of music great, if its melody is mediocre, its rhythm indifferent and its orchestration commonplace? My question looks rhetorical, but, it is not a "squared circle".
Awaiting your response,
Parla
Searching for god anywhere will result in either a null return or an element of what is invested in the search. As the "atheist bus" ad stated, there probably isn't a god so any "experience" one might want to see as evidence is almost certainly an expression of something else. Music is a language and all language is a symbolic representation of what we perceive as reality and thus interpreted to a greater or lesser extent as metaphor. Investing a "religious experience" in music, sometimes aided of course by the religious inspiration of the composer, is in the ear of the beholder. Claiming evidence of god in the awe, wonder and "spirituality" of any experience is hitching onto a convenient, if powerful bandwagon. Probably.
Vic.