Searching for God in Classical Music
Mon, Oct 10 2011, 12:22PM
#2
RE: Searching for God in Classical Music
[quote=VicJayL]
We (three) are in agreement then: the response to being profoundly moved by great music is in the mind of the listener alone.
I've never believed otherwise, deity or no deity. But I do get an eerie feeling reading the above that we are destined to meet on a blasted heath somewhere! Mine's an eye of newt shandy, please.
JKH
Mon, Oct 10 2011, 10:48PM
#3
RE: Searching for God in Classical Music
Eventually, the thread somehow may have a resolution. That was worthwhile.
Before we may abandon this one, I wanted to ask both of you (Vic and JHK) if you own the Late String Quartets of Beethoven. If yes, I think it would be interesting for us to exchange some views on Op. 132 and 135, which I found extremely profound (in any possible sense of the word). If not, I would urge you to rush and buy on of the so many great performances of them, unless Chamber Music is not for you.
Awaiting your response,
Parla
Tue, Oct 11 2011, 9:45AM
#4
RE: Searching for God in Classical Music
JKH,
Let's give that rendezvous a miss. The arguments about ingredients would be insufferably interminable.
Parla,
I have all the late quartets and find them the most profound music I know. (By the Lindsay SQ on ASV - amazing. I would be interested in your, or others', suggestions if you think there are better interpretations available.)
Vic.
Tue, Oct 11 2011, 1:19PM
#5
RE: Searching for God in Classical Music
Vic, I'm sure that the menu could be concocted to suit all tastes, and even include a vegetarian option. Difficult when dealing with eye of newt, toads, frogs and bats, but you never know.
It looks as though the late quartets is yet another thing upon which we three agree. I have a couple of versions (Medici and Quartetto Italiano) and think that these works are unfathomably and inexhaustably profound. I haven't made any attempt to collect other performances, but will try to as a result of both your recommendations, for which many thanks in advance.
The emotional and musical complexity of this music is obvious, but what particularly moves me is the profundity arising out of the apparent simplicity of some of the writing.
One thing I've always tried to do with these works is ration myself in listening to them. That sounds rather severe and self-denying, but I have to be in the right mood/frame of mind to do them the sort of justice and give them the attention they deserve. For me, they are something special, and not an everyday treat.
JKH
Wed, Oct 12 2011, 4:30PM
#6
RE: Searching for God in Classical Music
Sorry for my tardy response to your last two posts, but I had to deal with an emergency...
I'm more than glad with your replies in my question on Beethoven's Late Quartets.
To answer your query, Vic, on "other" versions, I wish to know which version of the Lindsay's you have. The latest is a better recording, the first is a somehow better performance. The JHK's Italiano is a "classic" par excellence. A safe recommendation and one of my favourites. There are at least two more classic ones, in quite good recordings, the Vegh and Talich, but I'm not sure the "reissues" (if they still exist) are that good as the originals. From the modern ones, my favourite complete set (you may find them separately as well) is the Prazak Quartet's in extremely good sound, in the Praga Digitals label. The complete set cannot be found in U.K. So, the best way is through Amazon.fr or de. or Fnac.com.
I asked specifically about op.132, because Beethoven admittedly composed particularly the third movement immediately after recovering from a serious illness, which he had feared was fatal. For the new "lease of life", Beethoven headed this movement with the words "A Convalescent's Holy Song of Thanksgiving to the Divinity, in the Lydian Mode". For me, this piece of music along with the rest of the Quartet is the most expressive, sublime and immensely beautiful address to the "Divinity", in a way that may "disarm" or "silence" even those who would be offended at the idea of the subject of "thanksgiving" to the divinity.
In his final Quartet in F, op.135, it's also very important to interpret Beethoven's intentions as to what he addressed the last movement , headed the "Difficult Decision", where ominous slow chords, wrote in the manuscript "Muss es sein?" (Must it be?) are answered with a faster, innocent almost naive theme, wrote in the manuscript with the words "Es muss sein" (It must Be!). I also found this movement as an allegorical questioning outcry of his "decision" to accept this elusive "It", by simply giving in, in his last hours of living, by using a singsong to this end. An amazing proof of his immense human spirit along with his love and faith for the mankind.
If you have any thoughts on these particular Quartets and movements, I would love to have them.
Many thanks,
Parla
Thu, Oct 13 2011, 8:15AM
#7
RE: Searching for God in Classical Music
Thanks for your suggestions Parla.
My set of the Lindsays is 1987.
I am going to choose to believe that LvB's reference to the divinity was meant in the same vein that Stephen Hawking and Einstein used it, as you might have guessed!
I am going to schedule a listening session with two works you mention, and I shall bear your viewpoint in mind - and try to convey my conclusions. To be continued ...
(I hope that your emergency was satisfactorily resolved.)
Vic.
Thu, Oct 13 2011, 9:13AM
#8
RE: Searching for God in Classical Music
Parla, I too shall devote some time this coming weekend to listening to these two and let you both know what, if any, coherent thoughts I might have about them. Needless to say, I shall be extremely interested in yours and Vics - and those of anyone else who is still following this thread.
And, of course, I also hope your emergency was not too seriosu and has now been resolved.
JKH
Fri, Oct 14 2011, 1:37AM
#9
RE: Searching for God in Classical Music
I'm eager to see your views on these two magnificent and deeply profound works of Beethoven.
(However, don't stick only to the Late ones. The op. 18 and the so called "Middle" Quartets are also extremely interesting, profound in an elusive way and amazingly inspired too. Try for example the compact but full of inspiration op.95, the "Serioso", in f minor, a tonality used for some very special works of LvB, like the "Appassionata").
Parla
Fri, Oct 14 2011, 9:01AM
#10
RE: Searching for God in Classical Music
I thoroughly agree, Parla. I certainly don't claim any expertise in his, or any other composer's, output in this genre, but the middle period quartets are an absolute delight and were my introduction many years ago to Beethoven's chamber music.
Strangely, in the way that so often happens with music of all sorts with which one's been familiar for some time, I've been playing one movement almost obsessively for some weeks now. It's the 2nd movement of the 3rd Razumovsky, and for some unfathomable reason can't get enough of at the moment.
I can still recall the very first time I heard the 2nd Razumovsky and the old Russian Imperial tune - I exclaimed "But that's from Boris Godunov!". Luckily I was at a friend's house, not at the Wigmore.
JKH
Fri, Oct 14 2011, 9:23PM
#11
RE: Searching for God in Classical Music
Last night I posted this http://www.bbc.co.uk/music/reviews/q86m regarding Artemis Quartet recordings of 132 and 135 and links to them on Spotify but for some reason it went to the mods for approval and hasn't resurfaced.
Anyway, I'll be taking time this weekend to listen to both and am sure to be enlightened.
Fri, Oct 14 2011, 11:03PM
#12
RE: Searching for God in Classical Music
Atonal, JKH and Vic indulge in these two magnificent Quartets (the op. 132 is to me arguably the greatest ever composed along maybe with op. 131), which I found quite pertinent to the subject of this thread and, please kindly share your thoughts, impressions etc.
Parla
Mon, Oct 17 2011, 11:16PM
#13
RE: Searching for God in Classical Music
Well Parla .... I spent far too long yesterday listening to Op.132. What a piece of work. The third movement, Molto Adagio; Andante, is ,perhaps, the most captivating and moving music I have heard in a long, long time. I played that movement over and over.
Why in all these years I haven't paid heed to this music I'll never know. I like to boast of my disdain for Beethoven, but holy moly how wrong can a man be?
Tue, Oct 18 2011, 12:23AM
#14
RE: Searching for God in Classical Music
So, Atonal, never is too late. Now, you know more. And, for "God"'s sake, never again disdain for Beethoven.
Now, you should embark also on op. 135 (pay particular attention on the magnificent Finale : "The Difficult Decision") to find out more about the "hidden" greatness of Beethoven. And his incredibly rich spirituality.
And a final word on another well kept secret about Beethoven: It's not the Symphonies, the Concertos or even his Piano Sonatas (except the very late ones), but his Chamber Music and foremost his String Quartets that make him unrivalled. So, now you know where you have to "dive" deep...
Good exploration,
Parla
Wed, Oct 19 2011, 8:38AM
#15
RE: Searching for God in Classical Music
I am going to echo Atonal's sentiment here, having just listened to Op 127, after a weekend with all five.
It has been a long time since I gave these works serious consideration since first registering that they somehow represented a kind of pinnacle in musical achievement - I think after seeing or hearing an interview with Peter Cropper following the release of the Lindsay Quartet's ASV set, and buying them.
Incidentally, I am very pleased with their recordings but if anyone thinks others have made a significantly better version, or that they miss something others have, please advise.
They have stayed with me over these few days and I am left struggling to do justice to my reaction. Not being a musician and having been self-taught in this field hampers me somewhat, but if I say I feel Beethoven does here in music for the human condition what Shakespeare does in words, that with the sentiment of Arnold's "darkling plain" or Houseman's "blue remembered hills" providing context, there's hope and belief in the fulfilment of human potential. And here we are as a result of such mighty statements of faith: with a value system embodied in the universal declaration of human rights, a clear understanding of our origins, and with the imaginative and intellectual triumph of having unified matter, space and time on this little blue speck in the universe. Beethoven here leaves me in that overwhelming emotional territory. Powerful, powerful stuff!
I think we have more or less established here that if you see god in music you put him there. What is absolutely undeniable to me is that you can't fail to see Beethoven's humanism. So where is religion? It's an emotional component, of course, but not a rational, motivating one. There's far too much in these pieces for that, in my opinion.
Here is the Enlightenment set to music.
Vic.
We (three) are in agreement then: the response to being profoundly moved by great music is in the mind of the listener alone.
Because we are in territory beyond the ability of language to describe when this happens, we fall back on such concepts as Parla's "faith, hope, love, enormous beauty, human spirit and so on" - which is fair enough as we have nothing else to describe it.
And further fair enough if such concepts for you are god, as in, "For me god is love", or "god is the human spirit". But, let's face it, when you hear this it is usually code for "evidence of god", and when linked to, for instance, that profound, "other-worldly" experience of great music, merely perpetuates what to many is "the god delusion".
Vic.